This one jumped out at me, so I did a few hours of research. Lane Two twenty two You'll see an arc of lights Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side Get permission To dig out. Lane 222 - most likely a US or state route. There's a big Rt 222 between Lancaster and Reading in PA, and a small one in Gainesville FL. Robert Fulton's birthplace is on Rt 222 in PA. A wingless bird ascended - can it be anything but a rocket? Citadel - stronghold. Something military? Florida + rocketry + military...NASA? But I don't know if Gainesville is anywhere near the rocketry stuff (tho U of F has a grant to work on space travel vehicles for NASA, and they have a campus in Gainesville). This one strikes me as a good one to start on simply because there are only so many Rt 222s, and I have to believe that's what the first line means.

I like your NASA idea.  I first thought about "The Citadel" but figured that would be toooo easy.  Military/NASA/some academy? makes sense with the last 2 lines.

What I cannot seem to find online is a comprehensive guide to US routes/interstates. Anybody know of one?

guys, I found a county road 222 in houston about 10 miles from NASA. here's a link to a map hxxp://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ed=By ... s&resize=s I live about 30 minutes from there.

Unknown: Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night Not even bothering to look up any facts here, but rereading this passage in a Texas slant...where is the Alamo located? BTW, "roots extended" could well be a pun on "routes" so if there is an extension on Cty Rd 222...

the alamo is in san antonio.  the walls are definately not granite. the route 222 I found is a little tiny road. there certainly might be one in SA, I haven't looked

Then it's not likely to be the Alamo. But knowing there is a rt 222 so close to NASA is as good a lead as any, and if you're nearby, it's worth trying to get more of this one unraveled so you can investigate.

if the route 222 is in PA, we may be in trouble. hxxp://www.222connections.com/ they are almost done digging that route up. wilhouse

Well, if the route still exists and 222 is how to get to the site of the burial, I'd expect that the site itself remains...

A friend of mine suggested Charleston, SC for this verse on account of a military academy called "The Citadel."  He paired it with Image 3 and sid the suit of armor looks like it is trying to fly. --Johann

Well, I believe I pegged the lion image (Image 2? 3?) to be Charleston, SC, so perhaps the obvious "Citadel" clue is correct!  222 may not be a road.  That also seems to be obvious.

do we know enough to put together a table with something like: verse   image   lat / long / city  key clues? wilhouse

Unknown: Lane Two twenty two Unknown: Lane Two twenty two After all this time, someone (hi, Leftbrained!) pointed out to me that this verse as posted on Q4T begins differently in the book.  It's a subtle difference, but the word "Lane" is on its own line. This could mean that we're not looking for a numbered lane or route 222 at all.  It could be Lane Street or the Lane Building, and the numbers could be 2-20-2 or even letters BTB (twentieth letter of the alphabet is T). I remembered that the Chicago verse used numbers to represent the *lettered* street names.  Plus the fact that "twenty two" is not hyphenated but separated by a space.  Sorry if this widens the search rather than narrowing it down.

Hands up, my fault, I've made the change. Sorry  ;D Mark

Just another little bit of rambling about this V since it has yet to be connected to either a P or a city. could the line mentioning the arc of lights be referring to Joan of Arc whose visions came in bright lights?  She was famous for the Battle of Orleans and N.O. sure has a lot of statues, churches, you name it named after her. just a thought

Fort Pike ?

"Of granite walls Wind swept halls" A Federal Courthouse in San Francisco has granite walls and halls with an ancient nautical figure that blows wind. hxxp://www.cr.nps.gov/seac/building.htm

hey Egg, I really like the "wind swept halls" reference. "Weight and roots extended Together saved the site" could this be referring to the 1906 Earthquake?  This building was only 1 of a few that survived the quake.  I havent found a concrete statement saying the bldg was saved by large underground roots but the bldg itself weighs appx 57,000 metric tons.  That alone sounds like a good way to survive (be saved) from a quake.

OK, here is a theory connecting this verse to the New York pic (12): "Of granite walls / Wind swept halls" The Cloisters, museum of medieval art, as pic 12 has a rounded medieval arch and perhaps representation of mosaic (in Fort Tryon Park) "Citadel in the night" could be FORT Tryon Park or Castle Clinton in Battery Park (from which one takes the ferry to the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island, and formerly in view of the WTC which might be depicted in pic 12) "A wingless bird ascended / Born of ancient dreams of flight" the Empire State and Chrysler buildings were to be used for derigibles, tied to the top of the buildings "Beneath the only standing member of a forest" a tower in Bridge Park (?) "White stone closest" White Stone Bridge from Manhattan to Bronx This might all be rubbish, but I will let the NY-area hunters sift through it. --Johann

"Lane Two twenty two" Obviously, there might be some mathmatical manipulation here, but they could also stand for letters.  There seems to be a fair amount of the images and verses referencing street names. Lane BTB might give us B.T. Boulevard or B.T. Bridge.  Does this ring a bell for any New York searchers?  Or any other cities for that matter?

well i do know that fort sumter was made of granite ;]

and it is a citadel....but how bout the elusive 222?

Unknown: well i do know that fort sumter was made of granite ;] I thought fort sumter was made of brick... Johann - your new york theory has possibilities but not being in new york I cant' yay or nay.

Here is a google search for your learning enjoyment  :) hxxp://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:-w ... ry/online_

By the way...when we were driving to Charleston i couldnt help but notice that the last exit on the interstate is 221. That kinda makes Charleston 222? lol  :D

The possibilities of my NY theory are improved if one spins around 342 times and squints into a floodlight.  Of course, the theory must involve the Templars and the Roswell incident.

But really, where are the NYers?  I'd like to hear their opinions.  The Charleston idea does sound good.

LOL  :D

Unknown: "Citadel in the night" could be FORT Tryon Park or Castle Clinton in Battery Park I'm not too sure about Fort Tryon Park for this reason only.  It appears to be a huge park (very nice for burying something) but as far as I can tell...is devoid of any sculptures or statues.  As stated in another thread, I feel PARKS should be our main focus .. and ones with statues needed for confirmers and directions. Battery Park, on the other hand, seems promising.  An interesting side note on Battery Park (hey, that is BP..Mr. Preiss?) is this...  While doing a little research on the park, it turns out that there is a Battery Park not only in NY but also in Charleston SC...another possible site.

When I first read this verse, I took the "wingless bird" to be a helicopter.  "Born of ancient dreams of flight"  immediately recalled visions of DaVinci's helical air screw.  I see that others have already suggested this. Igor Sikorsky left Russia for the USA and started the Sikorsky Aero Engineering Corporation near Roosevelt Field on Long Island, NY.  Sikorsky was the most notable pioneer of helicopters in the USA. Harold Pitcairn started the Pitcairn Autogiro Company in Willow Grove, Philadelphia, PA.  They built the Army's first rotary-winged aircraft.

I'll bump this thread for our newest visitor.  It was suggested that a Presidio Manzanita was the "only standing member / of a forest", so I did a quick search and found this site: hxxp://sacramento.fws.gov/es/plant_spp_ ... zanita.htm It looks more like a shrub from the description, and cuttings are being propagated.  Still, it *is* in the Golden Gate parks area.  I'm not sure if the rest of the verse really has much relation to San Francisco, however.

I finally got through Verse 5, but unfortunately I have very little original to offer. Maybe this will serve to spur conversation. Lane Two twenty two It is hard for me to believe that this actually refers to the number 222. Could refer to IIXXII or CXXII. Possibly 2202. More obscurely, it could mean 2(20)+2=42 or 2+20+2=24. dan39decoy : "Lane BTB might give us B.T. Boulevard or B.T. Bridge." You'll see an arc of lights fox : "could the line mentioning the arc of lights be referring to Joan of Arc whose visions came in bright lights? She was famous for the Battle of Orleans and N.O. sure has a lot of statues, churches, you name it named after her." In support of this, there is an actual arc of lights in Image 7, what we think is the N.O. image. At least two other verses reference some aspect of their matching pictures, so there is a precedent. Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Implies that the "site" wouldn't be there but for the presence of a large tree? Dan Amrich : "...could well be a pun on "routes" so if there is an extension on Cty Rd 222..." fox : "could this be referring to the 1906 Earthquake?  This building was only 1 of a few that survived the quake.  I havent found a concrete statement saying the bldg was saved by large underground roots but the bldg itself weighs appx 57,000 metric tons.  That alone sounds like a good way to survive (be saved) from a quake." Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night Egbert : "A Federal Courthouse in San Francisco has granite walls and halls with an ancient nautical figure that blows wind." hxxp://www.cr.nps.gov/seac/building.htm Why did he write "Wind swept" when it is properly spelled "Windswept"? could the misspelling be significant? A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight Could be a rocket or a helicopter johann : the Empire State and Chrysler buildings were to be used for dirigibles, tied to the top of the buildings. In support of this theory, someone else pointed out that the bird in Image 12 (which may be N.Y. City) looks just like the bird gargoyles atop the Chrysler building. These would be wingless birds ascended, all right. Flight could refer to fleeing something, or to a flight of stairs, but doubtful. Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south Something in close proximity to the casque site? White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side Again, local directions once you're in the immediate vicinity. Get permission To dig out. I think we can take these last two lines at face value. Finally, I found some analysis by johann compelling, so I repeat it here: johann : OK, here is a theory connecting this verse to the New York pic (12): "Of granite walls / Wind swept halls" The Cloisters, museum of medieval art, as pic 12 has a rounded medieval arch and perhaps representation of mosaic (in Fort Tryon Park) "Citadel in the night" could be FORT Tryon Park or Castle Clinton in Battery Park (from which one takes the ferry to the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island, and formerly in view of the WTC which might be depicted in pic 12) "A wingless bird ascended / Born of ancient dreams of flight" "Beneath the only standing member of a forest" a tower in Bridge Park (?) "White stone closest" White Stone Bridge from Manhattan to Bronx

i don't know if this will work , but i know of a 222 with really good prime rib, near a bend to the south..this is near the town of the golden dome, ND... i do believe chris columbus was one of the first students to attend here..

Time to revive this and go to the NY theory. Statue on Ellis Island. Eagle face exact to image12. hxxp://www.mikesjournal.com/Ellis%20Isl ... Detail.jpg Both Ellis Island and Battery Park were built up with landfill to make them bigger "Weight and root extended together saved the site" Both places were once considered "citadels" "in the night" could mean across the river View "from the west" of Ellis Island hxxp://www.graphitepaddle.com/images/EllisIsland1.jpg You better "get permission to dig out" Thanks Fox

Wow, that eagle face is an excellent match!  And, the photo in the second link ( hxxp://www.graphitepaddle.com/images/EllisIsland1.jpg ) includes a building which might be a match for the Russian Orthodox-like building in image 12!  Excellent finds!

FYI, Siskel and I spent half a day on and around Ellis Island.  While the bird's face is close, it is not an exact match (hard to tell from the pic posted).  Also, from whatever angle you look at it, that building doesn't match up with the russian orthodox church in the picture.  Just thought we'd save you a trip, but by all means, if you think we may be wrong, please be my guest. There are even large windows on the Ellis Island building which look close, but are not exact matches, to the "Window" in pic 12.  Also, you will see that I posted in the Image 12 thread (a while ago), an overhead view of Ellis Island, which matches the rectangle in Image 12.  It is certainly tempting, enough for Siskel and I to explore it.  It certainly fits the theory of the fair folk immigrating to the U.S.  But, as someone else pointed out (a while ago), it is hard to believe that a casque could be buried on Ellis Island. I never thought of matching Verse 5 to NYC, so that part is interesting. Do you have any info on these buildings being called "citadels"?

I think that because both Ellis and Battery Park have both been extended with landfill, the "weight and root extended" really must fit here.  Ellis island was extended with the earth and granite dug from making the NYC subways, while some of Battery Park was extended with earth and granite from making the WTC.  They both were once used as military forts as well as immagration facilities. Here, Castle Garden (aka Castle Clinton) is called a citadel: hxxp://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/a ... ticle=7233 Below, although the word citade l isn't mentioned, Ellis was first constructed to defend the harbor. hxxp://www.americanparknetwork.com/park ... ellis.html The eagle face is as close as anything I've seen so far,yet the body of the bird in image12 looks like a seagull.  With the shape of NJ in the hair and neck, the casque has to be in this area. Yet, there are still so many things in the image and verse5 that need to be explained. edit: Fox came up with verse5, I think it's dead on.

wind swept halls. (wind-swept: swept or exposed to the wind) A wingless bird ascended.  (ascend: to move toward the source{to ascend a river}) born of ancient dreams of flight.  (flight: fleeing; running away from, as of danger) edit: I should have left this on there, it's only a mile from liberty State Park hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... D%26sa%3DG

Just a thought on the couplet "Of granit walls Wind swept halls," in verse five:  According to the Merriam-Webster on line dictionary, the definition of "halls" is as follows: The castle or house of a medieval king or nobel; the chief living room of such a structure. ( i.e. "From the halls of Montezuma" in the Marine Corps Hymn) This may or may not change the approach taken in making sense of, or solving the verse, but it does add a different perspective about what the couplet may be referring to.

wind swept halls: Both sites have what one may consider a "chief living room".  Yet Castle Clinton has only that one room. In 1982, it was still wide open like it is today (getting windswept). A wingless bird ascended: May very well be a boat ascending up the inlet carrying people on "flight" from whatever they left behind. Beneath the only standing member of a forest: "forest" being used figuratively. If there were only one standing member, it wouldn't be a forest. I'm thinking some structure surrounded by a garden or small bushes. Lane Two twenty two: ???? You'll see an acr of lights One theory- a shipping lane where one could see the Verrazano lights leading to a place where weight and roots extended. I've taken a diinner cruise out of Perth Amboy NJ.  It goes around the outside of Staten Island, then takes you under the Verrazano Bridge (at night) and "ascends" towards the Statue of Liberty, Ellis Island, and The Battery. I know there are three shipping lanes getting into the harbor.  Just can't find anything on it.

Looking at the lines: Lane Two twenty two Lane and Two twenty two look to be seperated and each with it's own meaning and not nessessarily intended as Lane 222. 2/22- Feb. 22  Washington's birthday. For ex.  On Feb 22, 1877, Congress okayed the use of Bedloe's Island to be used for the future site of Lady Liberty. Probably not relevant but it is curious.

That's a really good observation, boogie. Perhaps that part of the verse refers to "Washington Lane" or "Washington Boulevard" or some such. Given your suggestion, I don't think it's coincidental that Washington Street terminates at the Battery just north of Castle Clinton. There is another Washington St. less than a block away from that church we found in Jersey City, too. Food for thought. Street names, by the way, seem to be a running theme in The Secret. We've noted many (Locust, Bellflower, Congress, Baum, etc.), and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see one here as well.

Ok, FB.  I like your observation, I found this of Battery Park at night. Schroll down.( I like that quote by Colette!) hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... D%26sa%3DN This may be our "arc of lights".

Boogie and Forest, The observations that "two twenty two" was Washington's birthday and that "Lane Two twenty two" could be Washington Street are fantastic. Digging around for "wingless birds", I went looking for historic flights of things like balloons and rockets, and found the following quote at hxxp://www.faa.gov/education/curric/wb/bharris.pdf Under the title of 100 YEARS OF SUSTAINED POWER FLIGHT HISTORY, compiled by Barbara Harris-Para, we see: "1830 Charles F. Durant of Jersey City was America's 1st native-born aeronaut.  He flew his balloon from Castle Garden (Battery Park) in Manhattan & landed in South Amboy, NJ." ...a wingless bird ascended, born of ancient dreams of flight.... This is it.  It's in Battery Park.  Good job, guys. Pine

Thanks for the confidence Pine, but I'll believe it when I see a casque! I wonder if there is a plaque or monument of some sort in Battery Park to commemorate the event.

I like it. I'm going on Thursday. edit: Charles Ferson Durant was born and died in Jersey City.  He's buried there. hxxp://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/nj ... eycity.txt

Couldn't wait.  Went to battery park today on a whim. (extended lunch, no camera this trip) Too cold to take notes, but seen a lot of things. Nothing on balloons though. Washinton St.- birthday (Lane2/22).  When you look up the street from the park you can see where the towers used to be. I'm pretty sure that from that point, you could only see one of them.  Narrow street. One lane. One car at a time. Arc of lights- Not sure but you can see the Verrazano from there. (day time) Weight and roots extended- the castle used to be surrounded by water.  Landfill saved the site? citadel- we know. Of granite walls- hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_par ... p?id=11995 All the walls where the heroes names are were made of granite.  Inscription at the site tells you so.  Very cool. wind swept halls- cutting wind today. Although there are no halls within the castle, there are many stations within the structure, looks like halls. (stretch) There are two giant flagpoles.  Only one, though in 82".(edit:wrong, there were two) Beneath the one is a monument which the pole is mounted. Confusing, one side talks of west indies, another side speaks of ancient times when people flooded here from far away. Hmm. There is an image of a sailboat on another side.  I will go back with a camera to document all this indeed. Of a forest to the south- just south of the flag is a small garden area right near the Korean memorial.  Nothing in it but a small white stone, about two inches above ground and about two x three feet rectangular shape.  Not sure what it said, but it is old and donated by Israel. Edit:As was posted here before, Eggbert I think, this is Jerusalem grove.  Although I don't remember the marker being near the winding path of stones. hxxp://www.thebattery.org/battery/monuments.html from the west side- The closest street to this part of the park is West Street.  Washington St t-bones West St. If one were to take 12 paces (30 ft?) from the west street side, which btw, the shape of the stone leads that way, it would take you to the egde of this forest and under a bench, that wraps around the entire park just about. like I said, I will go back with notebook and camera, on a warm day I hope.  It was really a blur.  About 30 minutes of freezing my ears off. What do guys think so far?

Really liking all that has been linked to Battery Park w/in the last couple of days. -why did BP use the word "ascended" instead of rose or flew?.......? because hot air balloons ascend.  Here is an interesting snipit (scroll down to More Than Just Hot Air) hxxp://www.newsday.com/community/guide/ ... navigation -if these arent our "granite walls" I will eat my hat Lastly, check this out: "Battery Park Underpass Marker Dedicated 1951 Description: Bronze plaque on exterior wall of tunnel entrance at Whitehall and South Streets. Donor/Souce: New York City Fabricator/Sculptor: U.S. Bronze Sign Company" a tunnel at WhiteHALL street?  tunnels can sure get drafty...

You don't have to eat your hat.  The inscription distintctly reads "made of granite".  Absolutely. BTW, What kind of hat? LOL One thing I forgot to mention, or didn't think worthy at the time, the Brooklyn-Battrey Tunnel runs straight under Battery Park.  In fact, there are two huge air ventilation structures inside the park.  Wind swept? Nice idea. I couldn't find anything on balloons at the park.  I still like the definition of ascend in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 4. to ascend towards {as a river}. hxxp://pictures.galenfrysinger.com/us/n ... .jpg  . Draw a circle around our clock. maybe? We'll get it done.  Just a matter of time!

boogieman wrote:: I couldn't find anything on balloons at the park.  I still like the definition of ascend in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 4. to ascend towards {as a river}. I dont think you will find "actual" items related to the balloon flight from the park....I just think that Durant's ascencion mearly confirms the park or area. I believe it is more like V1's "Tower of delight" leading us to a work by Herman ----> leading us to Hermann Park.  There probably wont be a statue or monument of Hermann, just that part of the V got us to the correct park. This is sounding very promising

Wow.  I see your point Fox.  Pine Tree, that makes this Durant guy a great find.  FB, Washington St!!  Who's coming out here to dig? Ok, we still have to nail the image.  But you can take this verse and find that casque.  The first ten lines gives us Battery Park. No doubt here.  The rest of the verse will get you to the X.  I would feel funny doing it without nailing the image.  I like image12.  Am I thinking to hard, looking for things that aren't in the pic?  I don't know yet.  I can't see another image relating to this whatsoever.  There are some strong points for Vancouver.  We're very close. .

boogieman - I would come if I could afford it! Given that you are going back, I have some requests. 1. Can you take some pictures of - and from - Washington Street? I recommend walking its length (it's quite short - only a block long) and looking for anything suggestive of an arc of lights. Be ready to think outside the box here - it could be a play on words, or perhaps a metaphor (like "wingless bird ascended" might refer to a balloon). 2. Can you take pictures of this thing? I mean, what the heck is it? It is just southeast of Castle Clinton. 3. Look for what "white stone" might refer to. It should be 12 paces west of something that could be described as "the only standing member of a forest." I believe this "white stone" business is what nails the X that marks the spot for this verse. 4. Finally, be on the lookout for something reminiscent of the pebbly patterns in the window in P12.

Some things for your next trip, in no particular order: 1.  I agree that the first part of the poem gets you nicely to Battery Park and that the remaining lines seem to give clearer directions, once you're at the right spot. 2.  Check out the following website.  It has lots of detail on most of the monuments, including dates of installation.  Many of them post-date The Secret. hxxp://www.thebattery.org/ 3.  I'd focus on finding something that fit "beneath the only standing member...of a forest...to the south".  Remember, though, that we're not really sure how to read this yet.  Is it "beneath the only standing member of a forest to the south", or are they three (or two) distinct phrases.  Keep your mind open on this.  From the evidence in White Point Gardens (Charleston), we might also consider that these lines may be quote fragments from monuments, as opposed to descriptors. 4.  The aforementioned website indicates that there have been extensive changes to Battery Park in the last few years.  Among the gardens and public areas, unfortunately, it appears that there has been much change. 5.  When you go, make sure to bring your copy of Image 9.  I know this isn't your (boogieman's) first choice of Image, but keep your eyes peeled for the unusual "X" mark or "dog-leg" on Mr. 9's cloak.  The dog and the leg may be separated in real life -- like two elements of the same sign, blended on the Image. Pine

Forest, I'm pretty sure that's a ventilation shaft for the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel. (edit:  I actually meant the South Street tunnel.  Looking at the maps, this shaft is closer to the apparent path of that tunnel than the Brooklyn-Battery one.  It's also smaller than the one on Governor's Island.  Anyway, this tunnel name does contain the word "South", like the poem.  Might be a good thing to look around, and see if you can figure out "the only standing member...of a forest...to the south" deal from this.) (edit edit:  What I'm calling the South Street tunnel is really called the Battery Park Underpass.  Sorry) Pine

Pine_Tree wrote:: Forest, I'm pretty sure that's a ventilation shaft for the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel. Pine windy

here is another one FB something keeps telling me to look around here.....dont know why tho.... -Boogieman....my one suggestion would be to take your book with you and keep reading the V over and over.  Focus on the last 2 lines of the V:  "Get permission To dig out."  As you walk around, keep asking yourself WHERE or WHY would you need permission?  Sounds like it is going to be in a special place...not simply under the 5th tree to the south past the green park bench,etc...  Maybe you dont need "permission" but keep asking yourself why BP used this word.  Another play on words?... per-Mission? not quite sure...

Good thought, fox. BP probably didn't mean "get permission" literally.

only standing member According to the New World Dictionary of the American Language, variations of the word member . 1. a part or organ of a human or animal body part. (thats a good one, no statues of a penis there) 2. a part of a plant considered with regard to structure or position rather than function. 3. a distinct part or element of a whole, as of a mathematical equation, a sentence, a syllogism , a series, a building, a bridge etc. 4.a person belonging to some association.  5. a member of Congress, Parliment, House of Reps. standing : -noun 1. the act or position of something that stands. 2. a place to stand. 3. status, postion, rank, or reputation. 4. duration or lenght of service, existance, or membership  -adj 1. that stands.  2. done or made in or from a standing position. 3. not flowing; stagnant, as water. 4. going on regularly without change; lasting, permanent.  5. stationary; not movable. 6.  not in use; idle, as a machine. syllogism : 1. an arguement or form of reasoning in which two statements or premises are made and a logical conclusion drawn from them. 2.reasoning from the general to the particular; deductive logic. 3. an instance of subtle tricky, or specious reasoning. There you have it.  All verses can be solved with a single dictionary. LOL  Some very tangy food for thought. edit:  all requests will be vigorously investigated. Maybe my old buddy Keylime will asisst.

Permission - the act of giving a formal [glow=red,2,300](usually written)[/glow] authorization [syn: license, permit] usually written?  maybe there is a plaque or monument giving the city of NY permission to dig or expand on the site to build Battery Park....or something like that.  Maybe we {the hunters} dont need permission to dig...maybe it is a formal permission to the city or some other entity?

Siskel wrote:: Now on to Lower Manhattan.  Egbert came across the aerial photo of Ellis Island and it looked too good to be true.  Given the theme of the book, it seemed natural that the center of immigration in this country would have some tie in to the location of a hidden casque.  We started out by taking the ferry from Battery Park and Castle Clinton (the whirring sound in the summer?).  The approach to Ellis Island seemed promising as you can see in the photos as the tops of the great immigration hall look similar to the image that seems to point to some onion shaped domed structure.  As we pulled into the docking area that is a direct match for the rectangle in the picture, we passed points in the water where only three of the tower tops were visible and more closely resembled the illustrated shape in image 12.  Once docked, we were surprised to see the great windows on the central building - arch shaped and similar to the shape containing image 12.  There are three such windows, each one made up of a grid type structure.  In between each such window, at the very top, stands a statue of an eagle.  The face is distinctly similar to the bird illustation in image 12, which is sure to be a statue of some origin, whether it is from the Chrysler building as has been suggested, or here on Ellis Island.  Combined with the face of the Lady Liberty, there seemed to be an awful lot of clues pointing to Ellis Island.  That much said, there are some obvious problems.  Continued ... Well, I would just kick myself if there is a treasure in Battery Park. Siskel and I spent several hours there, examining all the sights referred to above.  Siskel had a number of very good thoughts about it, and posted them in the Image 12 thread.  We were thinking that NYC was a combination of Image 12 and Verse 10.  Rather than trying to paraphrase him, here are his (somewhat verbose) notes:

Siskel wrote:: Continued ... I agree with Willhouse's earlier post that it is hard to imagine BP digging on the island at ANY time given its historic nature.  On top of that, half the island has been closed off for many years, leaving less of an area for him to have buried the casque and more of a chance of his getting caught during the digging process.  Also, there is no way you would be allowed to dig on that island now and I would venture to guess that was the case in the early 80's as well, no matter how different a world it may have been.  Still, with so many clues pointing to this general area of lower Manhattan, we thought the image might be highlighting the lower tip of the island and headed back for a look around Battery Park.  First thing we noticed is that Battery Park would be a far easier place to dig.  It is quite expansive and better suited for a private digging session.  Not far from Castle Clinton is the Marine Memorial made up of monoliths surrounding a giant eagle.  The head of the bird (see pix) is not too similar to the one in image 12, which in turn got us thinking again about that damn bird.  It is clearly a bird of prey, but is it an eagle?  The beak is rounded and enlarged, but the feet are more reminiscent of a falcon or a hawk, as eagles have much more pronounced feet and claws.  The bird in the image seems to bear more of a resemblance to a bird used in falconry, especially in the area of the lower extremeties.  And why is it white?  Because it is a statue?  Or are we looking for a white bird?  Anyway, the Marine eagle left us wondering more about that bird and its relevance, which seems extremely significant.  Proceeding further along the water we came up to "Pier A" which juts out into the water just off the coastline and in plain sight of Ellis Island (could this have something to do with Johan's earlier observation of the large "A" in the water?)  "Pier A" is a fairly famous area and at the very end is a large clock which looked for an instant like the one in image 12, roman numerals and all.  However, upon closer inspection, we could not detect the small circles at the ends of the hands of the clock as depicted in the illustration so not sure it is a perfect match.  We then headed over to the dutch flag pole at the tip of Battery Park in search of a "sign nearby that speaks of Indies Native."  The base of the monument mentions the purchase of New York by Peter Minuit who was affiliated with the Dutch East Indies Co. (I believe the story portion of the book also references his purchase of Manhattan Island from the Canarsie Indian tribe in exchange for some glass baubles - could the three droplets under the lady rising from the water be the glass baubles and not merely water droplets at all?)  Next we walked to the nearest corner only 40 yards from the flag pole and we stood at the vortex of the intersection where Broadway comes to meet West Street (not 100% certain of the name of the intersecting street, sorry).  It forms a V at this very spot and if you look north, up Broadway, you could say you are gazing north toward the isle (aisle - play on words?) of B (Broadway?) which might explain the reference to the simple roots in Rhapsodic man's soil by tying in Gershwin to Broadway.  Might be stretching here, but just offering some general observations.  Continued once more ... More from Siskel:

Siskel wrote:: Continued once more ... Anyway, we walked across the intersection and north on Broadway.  We immediately came to Bowling Green, the first park dedicated in Manhattan.  It is comparatively small and at its northern most tip stands the Wall Street Bull.  Not that the bronzed statue has anything to do with the hunt and I am not even sure when it was erected, but it is worth noting that when standing at this spot and looking due north, the isle of B ultimately draws your eye to a single building in the distance - the only such building visible on the horizon - the Chysler Building (perhaps significant due to the eagle gargoyles that surround the upper portion of this skyscraper and which bear a striking resemblance to our illustrated bird).  I tried to enlarge the picture to demonstrate this fact, but was not very successful, but take my word for it, it is eerily prominant and singularly visible in the distance.  Also worth noting was a sign attached to the fence around Bowling Green (which is also next to a Subway stop - "Cars abound?" or is that just a reference to the sheer volume of traffic at this point?).  I tried to take a picture of it but what it speaks to is the fact that this area was famous for sightings of the Peregrine Falcon (back to that damn bird again) a bird of prey that is bordering on extinction.  The sign indicated that this spot was popular for viewing this rare bird.  While it is doubtful this sign was posted back in 1982, the history may well have been known.  Also, while the Peregrine Falcon's lower appendeges look more similar to our fine feathered friend in image 12, its beak is quite less pronounced leaving us with a hawklike cross between a falcon and an eagle.  Should be noted that the Peregrine Falcon has a close cousin that is all white, the Gyrfalcon, also pretty rare, but more similar in its look to the one in the picture, however this bird is more closely associated with the arctic region unfortunately.  Some other tidbits that drew us to this area included the reference to the "natives still speak of him of Hard word in three vols." which thus far Egbert believes might refer to Charles Dickens (author of Hard Times which, when written, was divided into three novellas) who visited lower manhattan in the 1860s and came to witness firsthand the area nearby known as the immigrant slum the Five Points (the model for the movie the Gangs of New York).  Another possibility might be an additional reference to Netherlands born Peter Stuyvesant, a harsh ruler ("Hard word?") and autocrat, especially intolerant of religious dissenters.  He served as director general of New Netherland from 1646-1664 and lost New Netherland to England.  New Amsterdam became New York and Stuyvesant spent the rest of his life on his Manhattan farm called "Bouwerie" in Dutch; the road leading to Stuyvesant's farm is now the Bowery in Manhattan.  Finally, Egbert and I ventured up to 97th Street, near Central Park, to see the most famous Russian Orthodox Onion Dome church in all of Manahattan, the St. Nicholas Cathedral (again, see pix).  As you can see, the domes are very similar to those depicted in image 12, leading us to believe that the structure is more likely a cathedral and not necessarilly the immigration center on Ellis Island.  Still, that said, there is no other nearby corresponding sites or signs that seem to relate to Image 12 or the verse we were trying to match it to in verse 10.  Frustrating to say the least.  And that is not to mention our inability to find a single stained glass window that bore any resemblance to those three colored panels which, as has been posted before, seem more and more to be a reference to those color blind tests, but without revealing anything hidden within.  In the end, we were unable to narrow our search to a specific area in Manhattan and may have raised more questions than found answers, but we wanted to at least post the pictures with some elaborate explanation for those not able to travel to this area and/or to spark some more discussion for those locals and those far away in attempting to figure out this maddening picture.  Thats all for now.  Hope it was helpful. Final installment from Siskel:

Unknown: now the Bowery in Manhattan.  Finally, Egbert and I ventured up to 97th Street, near Central Park, to see the most famous Russian Orthodox  In the end, we were unable to narrow our search to a specific area in Manhattan and may have raised more questions than found answers, but we wanted to at least post the pictures with some elaborate explanation for those not able to travel to this area and/or to spark some more discussion for those locals and those far away in attempting to figure out this maddening picture.  Thats all for now.  Hope it was helpful. This is exactly what I was trying to say a few posts ago.  Clearly, it is unavoidable.  The Secret was meant to intentionally confuse.  I'm glad you posted this Egg, because on Saturday, while I was standing by Bowling Green looking beyond the Bull, I saw a tall building with atleast one onion dome and the other thing next to it on the roof, wasn't quite an onion dome , but something with a little more of a point to it.  They were green.  Did you see that?  Because that reminded me of image 12 where the 3 domes are, the one to the right looks a little different. Anyway, I will include that in my photo session when I go back.  Just watching the weather. edit: I will post when I will be back at the park. I welcome anyone who would like to join me. Also, here is the inscription of granite walls. hxxp://newyorkinphotos.com/cgi-bin/thum ... r_Memorial

Happy "Two Twenty Two" day to everyone. Has anyone tried to google "Washington Lane" with any of the other clues from this verse?

What is your suggestion?

There are all sorts of combinations.  You can google the words Washington, "granite walls," hall, citadel, flight, and white.  It would be a lot of work to sort through all of the results, but you may find something.

I do not intend to cause trouble, and this idea may be far-fetched, but perhaps this verse can be connected to pic 2 if the "citadel" refers to Charleston's The Citadel, which is located at 171 Moultrie St. beside Ashley River on one side and Hampton Park on the other (across Circle Drive of Hampton Park).  Circle Drive surrounds Hampton Park, which used to have animals until they were moved to Charleston Landing.  I found this: "Hampton Park: Located near The Citadel.  This park contained a small zoo at one time.  At times, Cadets at The Citadel could hear the lion roaring."  ( www.bestreadguide.com/charleston/storie ... /att_parks ) Hampton Park used to have a bandstand and still has a bridge, a water fountain and a central path.  (I am not sure why I included this last bit of info.) This is just an idea to throw in the mix.

johann wrote:: OK, here is a theory connecting this verse to the New York pic (12): "Of granite walls / Wind swept halls" Whoa! This was originally your brainchild. LOL  Johann, your ideas have been some of the best.  Keep posting them just in case we're wron.. er, wrong. May26, 2004

Personally I would love for this verse to be in Charleston, since I live within (what I consider) driving distance. However, I doubt BP meant Citadel to be taken so literally.

Just checking in.  Still to cold for Battery Park. In the 20s.  Just waiting....

Gonna be 60 degrees by Friday.  One day this week.  Something bothers me though. hxxp://www.arrakeen.ch/usaaug98/004%20% ... 20Park.JPG This is the eagle prior to 9/11.  That whole area has changed.  I wonder how much the entire park has changed since 82'.

Tomorrow's the day.  High noon.  Wish me luck.

Find us a casque Boogieman!  Bring it home.  Make sure you take your book and any notes that may {or even may not} be pertinant, you never know what might ring a bell as you walk around the park.  Also, take lots of pix, especially if you Dont find the casque.  They may just help us pinpoint a location. Best of luck and I will say a prayer to the treasure hunting Gods tonight as I go to sleep.

And for heaven's sake... don't find the casque and then get mugged Luck be a lady. Tron

Washington Street- 2/22-  There is a footbridge from Washington ST, that crosses the entrance to the  Brooklyn Battery tunnel, and puts you on Greenich ST, about 100 yards from the Park.  Looking for an arc of lights and trying to think outside the box, I could find nothing.  Until, that is.. when I was leaving to go home after 2 and 1/2 hrs. I had to cross the bridge because you cannot walk up Washington to the WTC site where I caught the train. (Tunnel in way)  I had already exhausted my 2 rolls of film when I noticed the lights on the bridge.  Old style lights.  They were staggered, one on the left, 20 ft and another on the right and so on.  About 6 lights in all. The bridge itself is arc'd across the roadway, and the lights, almost like street lamps, were arc'd over the footpath on the bridge.  You can't really get the gist of it by this pic: hxxp://www.northeastroads.com/new_york300/i-478_sb_exit_000_03.jpg You know how footbridges have fences on each side that arc over the path?  That's what the lights look like.  I have to go back and get a shot of them while crossing.  I already have 2 rolls and will post them in a day or two. The park has a lot of construction going on and from what I can tell, the casque could only be buried in one of two places.  But let me tell ya, I'm pretty convinced this verse is it. Beneath the only standing member- Walloon Settlers  Memorial or the Ericsson monument.  Because the white stone I had mentioned a while back in the Jerusalem Grove is about 50 ft away from the Ericsson, I'm leaning towards the Walloon. hxxp://www.defreest.com/images/MonumentInscrip.gif I wasn't even concidering that piece until I found another white stone, similar in size and shape to the Jerusalem stone.  This stone is actually in the Grove as well, surrounded by brush. (Grove-Forest?)  I bet it was once a plaque, but there is nothing written on it (anymore).  While standing at this stone, I walked off 20 good steps, without stretching, and on the 21st, I kicked the Walloon Settlers Memorial.  Now, this stone is twenty paces from the memorial's west side.  I always thought that would be tricky, like what happened to Egg out in Cleveland.  To be honest, I didn't concider direction until I walked the 20 paces five times. The entire northern section of the park is under construction.  I walked around the ventilation shafts and there wasn't a stone in sight.  I looked at Fox's flagpole near South St.  Years ago, it was all sand around the base.  Now it's concrete and pavers.  (please don't be there, right Wilhouse!) No body is digging in Battery Park without permission!  I talked to a couple of Park Rangers about the park and when I told them what I was up to, they warned me about Federal property, and arrests.  Did not deter me.  I got from them a couple of names and a phone # of the curator (?) to get more info and PERMISSION.  I think it would be I good idea to nail down the image before I contact them.  You know they would want the publicity, why else would they let anyone dig.  But they can't get that without the complete package... So? Edit: BTW, the Wallon Settlers memorial is the only standing member in Jerusalem Grove.

Good work boogs - looking forward to seeing those pictures.

Thanks FB.  Here it is the dig: hxxp://www.freewebs.com/patcash/batterypark.htm (pics not ready yet)

boogieman wrote:: The entire northern section of the park is under construction.  I walked around the ventilation shafts and there wasn't a stone in sight.  I looked at Fox's flagpole near South St.  Years ago, it was all sand around the base.  Now it's concrete and pavers.  (please don't be there, right Wilhouse!) YES! to be honest, though I never thought Preiss could bury the casque in Hermann Park (which I don't believe he did), I don't think he would bury it in Battery Park either. Not his style.  If it's there, it's out of the way in some secluded area. wilhouse

Here's what I found out today.  Those park rangers I had spoken to on Saturday were incorrect.  The only part of the park that is federal property is Castle Clinton itself.  The rest of Battery Park is owned by the city.  Naturally, when steared to the right people, they seemed very intiqued.  I may be in there with permission and shovel soon.  Pics tomorrow (working 16 hrs tomorrow, maybe Wednesday).

boog, good luck. I will tell you that on my first trip to hermann park, I was told that I would never be able to dig in the zoo!! wilhouse

hxxp://community.webshots.com/user/boogiemanQ4T click on the Casque Here are the pics.  Too many that I like didn't come out.  The Walloon Settlers Memorial (390018) is the closest one to the castle. Most of Jerusalem grove did not come out. Pic #390020 is my white stone.  Need help with 12 paces .  Can 20 steps be concidered 12 paces?  Don't know why I thought 20 paces when I was there.  I guess that's why you need at least 4 eyes.  One set looking and one set reading.

I got a phone call today from a nice lady from  NYC Parks.  Any open space within Battery Park can not be dug up, unless it was under a dumpster or something.  Wallon Memorial seems out.  Still, she was interested.  She also told me that the park was quite derelict in 82' and that if we could find exactly where it was, she would be able to tell us if that area had been disturbed, or as she put, whether 2 feet of earth had been moved since then.

Question for Egbert:  Did you happen to check out the Jewish Tercentenary Memorial located within the Peter Minuit Plaza just to the south of Battery Park?  It seems to fit nicely with the theme but I can't find pictures on it.  It is being expanded right now, but still my be worth a look. Only Standing member Here's an interesting read on it: hxxp://nycgovparks.org/sub_your_park/hi ... p?id=13319

I don't recall whether we saw it.  We spent several hours there, so we probably saw it, but did not think it fit in with anything.

Bump.

"You'll see an arc of lights" hxxp://www.lighthousefriends.com/light.asp?ID=334 hxxp://members.virtualtourist.com/m/4a9c6/d3e24/1/ The white stone must be on the ground and probably not going to find a photo.

The first lighthouse postioned SouthWest of the Fort. (The new one oft pictured is NorthWest of the Fort) This link is good at explaining the history of the 'range of lights' hxxp://www.angelfire.com/SouthCarolina/ ... Light.html

Man, am I hesitant to get back into this...  This verse can fit either location.  If this is indeed for p2, than v10 must be the NYer and our p12.  Between battery park and the WTC (ground zero), so much has been destroyed or just remodeled.  The Peter Minuit Plaza is under total reconstruction that without Mr. Preiss, it would be almost impossible to decipher. Weight and roots extended- the Palmetto tree seems like a better fit for roots , I begrudgently have to admit.  But Battery Park extended has both weight and roots as well. I'm going to assume, for now that The Grey Giant is now One World Trade center and see where it goes.  I've scratched my head so much I'm bleeding.

I think the key difference to be made between the two choices is the word "saved" This would indicate a possibility of loss averted. I don't know the historical significance of Battery Park (although I should) Fort Moultrie is singled out individually as saving the British Invasion for its unique position. It could see the ships coming before the ships had to sail around the harbor and come up from the south.  A distinct advantage. Does Battery Park have a simialr distinction? Was this particular spot going to be lost as opposed to the rest if the harbor? Also, the fact that the only road leading into the island is called station 22.  How is the first lines connected to the Battery?

And isn't there a match on the image for this site. (Across from Sumter) I do not see anyother verse that has a nearly good fit with this. FWIW... I do think the grey giant refers to something in NY but I am between Fort Greene and Prospect Park.

Unknown: I think the key difference to be made between the two choices is the word "saved" This would indicate a possibility of loss averted. I agree that "saved" is important. I interpret this to mean saving a historically important site. If it refers to Castle Clinton in Battery Park, it could refer either to the landfill project that extended the tip of Manhattan to encompass the fort, or to the public outcry that saved the fort from demolition that was planned to make way for a thoroughfare.

I thought about this verse really hard today -- as a riddle. I'm not sure I can contribute anything important, but maybe my thoughts will inspire someone else to further insights. Lane Two twenty two Why is Lane on a separate line from Two twenty two ? Some conjectures: He just felt like writing it that way, and it isn't significant. Perhaps Lane has nothing at all to do with Two twenty two . Maybe Lane is a person's name? A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight I'm really liking the Durant balloon theory for this one. Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night roots extended could refer to descendants of ancestors who arrived in the U.S. at Castle Clinton during the last half of the 19th century. Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south White stone closest Some different ways to interpret these lines: Beneath the only standing member of a forest (which is located to the south of the casque site)... Beneath the only standing member of a forest (which is located in the Southern part of the country)... Beneath the only standing member of a forest. To the south, white stone closest... Beneath the only standing member of a forest (implying that the other members are somehow lying prostrate)... Beneath the only standing member of a forest (implying that the other members are simply not there)... What could this standing member be? It could be a tree. This is the most literal interpretion, given that BP wrote forest . It could be metaphorical, indicating something that stands and is usually found in groups, but this one is on its own. It could be a flagpole, a statue, a tree, a monument, etc. Or, only standing member / Of a forest could be some sort of play on words. Some literal translations: sole tree only tree lone tree lonely tree one tree At twelve paces From the west side Get permission To dig out. What does BP mean by the end of the verse? Here are some possibilities: He might have meant to find the standing member and proceed 12 paces west of it, then dig. He could mean to find the standing member 12 paces from the west side of something else prominent and obvious, then to dig beneath it.

And why is this verse specifically telling you to get permission... as has been the routine... we are getting in facto permission on all the sites.. but this site holds special status(?) Grant Park Lake Park Greek Park all do not require a fee for entrance and are mostly public... Verse 5 has a different distinction or jurisdiction. just thoughts.

That is a very good question. Perhaps BP is being clever, and it's a joke that can only be understood on-site?

Unknown: A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight I'm really liking the Durant balloon theory for this one. Speaking of balloons--I found this interesting. "On April 13, 1844 a broadside, or 'extra page,' appeared in the midday issue of the New York Sun (the same newspaper that ran the Great Moon Hoax back in 1835) announcing that the famous European balloonist Monck Mason had succeeded in flying across the Atlantic Ocean in 75 hours. If true, this would have been a remarkable achievement—the first time the Atlantic had ever been crossed in a balloon.  The balloon, named the Victoria, had apparently taken off from England on a trip to Paris, but had been blown off course due to a propeller accident and ended up floating across the Atlantic and landing on Sullivan's Island, near Charleston, South Carolina.  The story was quickly revealed to be a hoax, authored by Edgar Allan Poe." "...The Journal here ceases. Some particulars of the descent were communicated, however, by Mr. Ainsworth to Mr. Forsyth. It was nearly dead calm when the voyagers first came in view of the coast, which was immediately recognized by both the seamen, and by Mr. Osborne. The latter gentleman having acquaintances at Fort Moultrie, it was immediately resolved to descend in its vicinity. The balloon was brought over the beach (the tide being out and the sand hard, smooth, and admirably adapted for a descent,) and the grapnel let go, which took firm hold at once. The inhabitants of the island, and of the fort, thronged out, of course, to see the balloon ; but it was with the greatest difficulty that any one could be made to credit the actual voyage - the crossing of the Atlantic. The grapnel caught at 2, P.M., precisely ; and thus the whole voyage was completed in seventy-five hours ; or rather less, counting from shore to shore. No serious accident occurred. No real danger was at any time apprehended. The balloon was exhausted and secured without trouble ; and when the MS. from which this narrative is compiled was despatched from Charleston, the party were still at Fort Moultrie. Their farther intentions were not ascertained ; but we can safely promise our readers some additional information either on Monday or in the course of the next day, at farthest."    --NY Sun, by E.A. Poe

Trohn wrote:: Grant Park Lake Park Greek Park all do not require a fee for entrance and are mostly public... same held true for the Hermann Park zoo, back in 1982! wilhouse

In keeping with the idea that this verse refers to Charleston I think it is worth mentioning that a 'wingless bird' sits on the parade grounds within the campus of the Citadel.  That 'wingless bird' being a Vietnam era helicopter.  While I agree that you can almost write-off the citadel for the word being mentioned in the poem, i thought the helicopter was worth mentioning. Another item that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the idea that two twenty two is a time ala 2:22 am or 2:22 pm -Mike

There is a 222 Lane in Brooker, FL near 29,55N 82,17W.  I found reference to it in a Google search from the Alachua County Board of Adjustment meeting minutes from March 2, 2005.  However, Brooker, FL is kind of remote and from Google Earth looks like a lot of forest/farm type land so I doubt a park of any repute is there.  However, it is prime area for part of the national Forest system that covers much of that part of Florida (I have not looked at a National Forest overlay of FL yet though since it is probably a LOOOOONG shot). It is actually NW 222 Lane and is a privately maintained single-lane road.

From previous verses, I think BP is generally more cryptic about street names than to actually say the name of the street.  He has refered to roads before, but never by their actual names. For instance, it is supposed that "10 by 13" in verse 12 Refers to Jackson and Monroe Avenues (10th and 13th letter).  It would be very out of character to actually say what he means. On another note, are most people resolved that this verse refers to New York?  I still believe it refers to Charleston.

Present majority thought on 222.... is it refers to the road leading onto Sullivan Island. The roadway over the draw bridge is a given name (that escapes me right now) but it changes to Station 22 once into Sullivan Island proper. (station being a reference to there being a Fort on the property). Now Station 22 is the only street here with a 'twin' called Station 22 1/2.  (a small roadway adjacent to the main one that led to a now abandoned light house) Therefore:    Lane Two twenty two Actually means - Find a street with two (quantity) twenty twos. The seperation of Lane is important because it allows the seperation of the first two to mean quantity as opposed to the proper name.

Is anyone still looking at this verse possibly tied to Florida?  I am going to a park tomorrow to take some pictures where a LOT of this verse matches, but using 222 as in 2 20 2 relating to the alphabet (BTB).

Popular opinion is that this verse matches Charleston or New York.  I have not heard anyone say anything about Florida. Regarding converting the numbers to letters, don't for get that in addition to being read as 2 - 20 - 2 (BTB) it could read 2 - 22 (BV).

There are sooo many ways the "two twenty two" could be interpreted...  I noticed in another verse he did hyphenate some numbers, but NOT here. I also found this today: 'Another favourite theriomorphic image is that of the two birds or two dragons, one of them winged, the other wingless. This allegory comes from an ancient text, De Chemia Senioris antiquissimi philosophi libellus. The wingless bird or dragon prevents the other from flying. They stand for Sol and Luna, brother and sister, who are united by means of the art.' C.G. Jung. (1989) Mysterium Coniunctionis. Princeton University Press. And...  an ancient Greek Riddle: "I am the black child of a white father; A wingless bird, flying even to the clouds of heaven. I give birth to tears of mourning in pupils that meet me, and at once on my birth I am dissolved into air."

What is the solution to the riddle?  A cloud?

Hmmm.  My guess would be water or rain.

I thought about putting the answer to the riddle on here, but then decided it would take the fun away Both are on the right track - kind of close.  But can clouds or water(vapor) bring tears? I have not tried to link it further to either of these items I found in my research, but it is a possibility since everything is up in the air still.  I am dedicated right now mostly on pic6 (and tied to v5).

smoke wilhouse

Bingo!  Smoke it is... Now whether it has any relevence, I don't know.  Since anything is up in the air, if anything maybe it will be something else to look at at least.

Any results from the inspection of the Fort? FWIW, the more I mulled it over the more I really like L'ON AVENUE.

We are going tomarrow.  We plan to pretty much spend all day in search of the casque.  We have 4 foot 1/8 inch steel poles for probing the sandy earth, and will be bringing shovels as well.  Wish us luck. EDIT:  What is FWIW?  Just trying to update my knowledge of internet slang.

Good luck (fingers crossed)! FWIW = for what it's worth

Hey, where are the hunters? there is a lot of time in silent I think P2-V5 is a realy match (confirmed by map in the skull) I was looking for a place where they take off 'hot air balloons', near a forest... something as well as (in google map): close to Charleston Wannamaker county park (forest). (not really sure if there in 80´s) or maybe a big old tree hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/1018586981000403353PLYhGrOiPy Is just a suggestion. Forgive me if i'm talking nuts I would like to be there, but I am not resident. It is difficult to follow clues so far being Go ahead!

Bump..for convience.

Photo of the lone tree (to the south) as seen from the Fort. hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/154594 ... 6620tYvpWt upper right of photo... "one is a lonely number" different shot, different angle, same tree hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/154595 ... 6620TOamFr upper left of photo The parking lot of right by the white house.

Where hot air balloons take off near a forest?  Forest Park in St. Louis, of course.  (OK, wishful thinking.)

The Great Balloon Hoax By Steve Goldman NCSA Member #9 Crossing the Atlantic Ocean by a wind-powered, lighter-than-air balloon has been the dream of mankind since the invention of lighter-than-air craft. Since the first manned balloon ascension on October 15, 1783 (tethered) and the first manned free-flight on November 21, 1783, the goal has been to break the bond with Earth and float between the New World and the Old World. This dream lay unfulfilled for almost the entire history of manned flight to the present day. It was not until 1873 that the first attempt was made to cross the Atlantic from New York to Europe by balloon --- the three brave souls got no further than Long Island Sound before a storm forced them down. Not until August 10, 1978, when Abruzzon and Newman in Double Eagle II went non-stop from Pennsylvania to France was this elusive goal finally realized. The New York Sun of April 13, 1844 put out a broadside extra headlined: "Astounding News by Express. VIA Norfolk! --- The Atlantic Crossed in Three Days . . .[by] Flying Machine . . ." How does this story jive with the facts at the beginning of this article? To understand these contradictions you must realize that in this era of newspaper history, speed and more speed was the important issue, particularly among the penny newspapers. The New York Sun and the Herald had been battling for years and now the Tribune came into the fray. Each of those (and other) competing papers desired to be the first on the street with up-to-the-minute news. This was in the era before the telegraph and the main source of "hot" news was a correspondent with an "in" or a correspondent with a rapid mode of travel. Accuracy was to be sacrificed for speed. Get the story and worry about truthfulness later. Enter on the scene Edgar Allan Poe. This was the Poe of the Tell Tale Heart and Murders in the Rue Morgue fame. But although he was an author who is venerated today, in 1844 he was nearly destitute. Poe had returned to New York from Philadelphia with his sick wife and mother. He was a recognized genius but his worldly wealth amounted to $4.50. His fortunes were at a low ebb when he arrived back in New York on April 6, 1844. He and his family found rooms at Greenwich Street, He wrote to a friend: "The house is old and buggy but it is the best I can do with less than $5.00 in my pocket." He had to have more money. The newspapers seemed to be the most available place to get it, and the Sun was the liveliest of them all. Speed was what they wanted and speed was what they would get! Edgar Allan Poe wrote a hoax centered on the first crossing of the Atlantic in a balloon and sold it to the New York Sun. It appeared on April 13, 1844 headlined in an extra heralding: "The Atlantic Crossed in Three Days!" The story went on to say: "The great problem is at length solved. The Air, as well as Earth and the Ocean, has been subdued by science, and will become a common and convenient highway for mankind. The Atlantic has actually been crossed in a balloon!" The story that followed was about five thousand words in length. To summarize it, Monck Mason had applied the principle of the Archimedian screw to the propulsion of a dirigible balloon. The gas bag was an ellipsoid thirteen feet long with a car suspended from it. The screw propeller, which was attached to the car, was operated by a spring. A rudder shaped like a battledore kept the airship on its course. The voyagers, according to the story, started from Mr. Osborne's home in North Wales, intending to sail across the English Channel. The mechanism of the propeller broke, and the balloon, caught in a strong northeast wind, was carried across the Atlantic at a speed of sixty or more miles an hour. Mr. Mason kept a journal, to which, at the end of each day, Mr. Ainsworth added a postscript. The balloon landed safely on the coast of South Carolina, near Fort Moultrie. The names of the supposed voyagers were well chosen by Poe to give credibility to the hoax. Monck Mason and Robert Holland were of the small party which actually sailed from Vauxhall Gardens, London, on the afternoon of November 7, 1836, in the balloon Nassau and landed at Weilberg, Germany, five hundred miles away, eighteen hours later. The others named by Poe were familiar figures of the period. Poe used a plan of having real people do the things that they would like to do. The balloon hoax, however, lasted for only a day. The Sun itself said on April 15, 1844: "Balloon -- the mails from the south ... not having brought confirmation of the balloon from England ... we are inclined to believe that the intelligence is erroneous." Poe went on to bigger and better things, although like many talented artists, his real fame and fortune were to elude him in his own lifetime. People fondly remember Poe for Murders in the Rue Morgue and the Tell Tale Heart but newspaper aficionados will think of him fondly as the author of the balloon hoax.

Hey all, I posted this in the Image 2 thread as well. I was thinking about how to link this image with a verse and as has already been mentioned with the casques that have been found V12 was linked to P5 with the statue of the indian riding the horse in the Picture with the line WHERE M AND B ARE SET IN STONE in the Verse.  And V4 was linked to P4 by the columns (although this could have also applied to P8).  Anyway, V5 talks about an arc of lights and if you look at P2 you can clearly see an arc of lights reflected in the eyes of the lion.  Perhaps it is a bit of a stretch but of all the images in the various pictures it is the only one where the eyes reflect something Just my two cents, digger7

forest_blight wrote:: Hey digger7.  Welcome.  Like these arcs?  Scroll up and you'll see the original post.

"WHERE M AND B ARE SET IN STONE" had nothing to do with the indian/horse statue. The sculptures were called "Spearman" and "Bowman" if memory serves, and they are not made of stone. The verse is instead referring to "Mozart" and "Beethoven," whose names are literally carved in stone across the street from the casque site.

Aah, my bad.  Thanks for the correction FB

Lane Two Twenty-Two, refers to February 22nd, 2nd month twenty-second day.  Ya know what holiday is on that date? President George Washington's Birthday.  I think there is a Washington Ln.St.Rd.Dr.Pkwy.  something. sorry if this has already been stated.  I believe this to be the answer, there is a Washington St. near Charlotte St. Calhoun St. near the Maritime Center.

I believe this to be our Lane 222!  Whadya'll think?  It hit me when I was sitting in Study Hall at school. -regulus

I've thought it was an excellent idea since boogieman suggested it last year.

Again, I'm sorry if this has already been posted, however, it sounds pretty solid.

regulus wrote:: Again, I'm sorry if this has already been posted, however, it sounds pretty solid. "Everytown has an Elm Street" F. Krueger I still do not think it is a correct interpretation. The clue is " Lane Two twenty-two" Not "Lane two twenty-two" I think this is a significant difference.

true, but we'll get it.

I know that the topic of Canada recently resurfaced and that the possibility of Niagara had been mentioned in the past. I was mulling (and Googling) over Lane Two Twenty Two. Could it be a reference to Lundy's Lane in Niagara Canada?  During the Lundy Lane Battle in the War of 1812, a ship called the Penguin went down at two twenty two. Haven't had time to see if the area could fit the rest of the verse, but I thought I'd throw it out there. Shannon

Wow...that sparked a whole new trail..... I did just a little bit of prelim research here, because I've been a proponent of Niagara Falls since starting this hunt. However, I was tying it into image 2 and v 10.  I Had never considered v. 5....but here's what I found: Lundy's Lane is indeed the scene of a battle--fought at night. (Citadel in the night) 22 Soldiers are buried in the vault beneath the monument there were two separate references I found for 'arc of lights' both of which led me straight to Niagara, and both of which involve Nikola Tesla, who received a patent for arc lighting modification and who has two monuments at NF, one of which is an ARC--as in the Arc d'Triomphe. (That's what it looks like.) "Arc Light" is also the name of a film by a Canadian man who filmed a travelogue into the Grand Canyon AND Niagara Falls--but that was made in 2003. I just found that delicious, but don't suspect any connection. The rest of the verse will be much harder to pinpoint unless the "forest" it refers to is something other than actual trees. Very interesting thought, however!!  Thanks, Shannon!

shseverin11 wrote:: I know that the topic of Canada recently resurfaced and that the possibility of Niagara had been mentioned in the past. I was mulling (and Googling) over Lane Two Twenty Two. Could it be a reference to Lundy's Lane in Niagara Canada?  During the Lundy Lane Battle in the War of 1812, a ship called the Penguin went down at two twenty two. Haven't had time to see if the area could fit the rest of the verse, but I thought I'd throw it out there. Shannon That's a great find, Shannon.  I have been trying to find the time reference through Google, and cannot locate it.  I only found that the Hornet captured the Penguin, but nothing about 2:22.  Do you have a link?  Thanks.

I found the reference in the book The Naval War of 1812  Or The History of the United States Navy during the Last War with Great  Britain to Which Is Appended an Account of the Battle of New Orleans by Theodore Roosevelt. It's now an eBook through Project Gutenburg. If you do a Find through the text, it doesn't appear, but if you search via google and then looked at the cached page where Google highlights what you are looking for, you'll see it. I searched on "Lundy's Lane" Penguin "two twenty".  I re-read the reference today and realized that it's not the time that the Penguin went down. The Penguin went down at 2:02, so it's probably not relevant to the search. That's what I get for posting while tired.  Here's the quote and the link to it below anyway. As the vessels separated the _Penguin's_ foremast went overboard, the bowsprit breaking short off. The _Hornet_ at once wore, to present a fresh broadside, while the _Penguin's_ disabled condition prevented her following suit, and having lost a third of her men killed and wounded (14 of the former and 28 of the latter), her hull being riddled through and through, her foremast gone, main-mast tottering, and most of the guns on the engaged side dismounted, she struck her colors at two minutes past two, twenty-two minutes after the first gun was fired hxxp://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:J4 ... cd=3&gl=us

Perhaps they should have taken the 22 twain.

You slay me, shecrab! Would that make object of Twain's attention a wailwoad twack?

As someone who is becoming more and more addicted to The Secret and to reading this message board, I can attest to one thing: It's frustrating as hell when you think you found a *perfect* location that completely fits the verse, and then you find out that the location wasn't even there until 2006. Bah.

I recently went to Charleston to check out some of my theories and double up on some of the "tested" thoughts that have been echoed here in regards to this verse matching up with Image 2. Where I can see how you could get excited and make something of this, in many ways (as you can following a simular track with other image/verse combinations), this verse just didnt match up in any remote way compared to the style of the other two finds. That palm tree near the "white stone" is simply that, a plam tree near a white marker but in no way significant enough to be the last standing member. It is about 18 yards from the enge of the water...yes the ocean where TONS, I literally mean TONS of white STONE is located as in a man-made barrier from old stone structures. I like the new direction with this verse but, that leaves some different match-ups for image 2....and so goes the searching. (I think Image 2 discussions need to be reborn- "Washington" park was very promising location indeed......as well as so many others in Old Charleston...so over to that thread I'll go..Canada..take me away!) Cheers

Since we are jumping all over the map lately, I thought I'd match Image9 to Verse 5.  It seems logical because this image and verse are way up in the air right now. Going back to Lane two twenty two, St Louis has a very famous Washington Ave.  There are also plenty of citadel references to the city.  St Louis has an annual Hot air Balloon race since 1977, I think it has started at Forest Park most of the time, saving match-ups from image9 to St Louis.  Worth exploring?

Sonoran wrote:: Lane Two twenty two The runway numbers at First Flight Airport are 2 and 20. I don't understand how the extra "two" is explained though. You'll see an arc of lights There is a beacon on the monument. It is a maritime beacon, but is designed for aviation. A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight The Wright Flyer has wings but they aren’t bird wings. This line should be a perfect match. I think the "extra" two needs to be explained before we go to V5 for this.  The line sounds like a road to me and Washington's birthday still makes more sense than anything else. The beacon doesn't constitute an arc of lights.  Just one flashing beacon created to guide ships. The wings are wings.  The monument, the Flyer, have wings. I think you have to think here, of something that ascends without wings.  Rockets, balloons etc.  I really like the way you matched the rest of the verse, BTW.  But V11 really is North Carolina. How can you ignore this for V11? Pass two friends of octave, In December!!!!! ps:  forgot to add an LOL to my "Timer" post.  My Bad.....

Sonoran is correct...the monument DOES have wings. LARGE WINGS are carved on either side of the monument. From the air, as well, the memorial is the SHAPE of an airfoil (wing). These are deliberate metaphors. And this verse actually DOES fit pretty well ALSO! I'm almost convinced, in fact. You puzzled over this: Of granite walls Wind swept halls But don't forget about the most famous flight poem of all time, by Gillespie Magee: Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth And danced hte skies on laughter-silvered wings. Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth Of sun-split clouds and done a hundred things You have not dreamed of--wheeled and soared and swung high in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung my eager craft through footless halls of air. Up, up the long delirious burning blue, I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace Where never lark, or even eagle, flew And while with silent lifting mind I've trod The high unsurpassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand and touched the face of God. I also think the extra 2 needs to be explained, but there were TWO of them...the brothers. So maybe this reads more like "Lane 2-20, Two.." meaning on Lane (airstrip) 2-20, two (brothers) flew. Nice work, Sonoran!!

The 222 kind of makes sense but how dismissing the other V (sorry, the book was left in the Q) seems pretty concrete to me.  I mean, come on....Dark Forests, words on Kill Devil Hill monument & : "Octavio Chanute also began his experiments with gliders near Lake Michigan and he began a relationship with two brothers who worked in the construction of bicycles. They were from Dayton, Ohio, and their names were Wilbur and Orville Wright." There is "octave" and his 2 friends... I suppose this should go into the correct V thread but I just wanted to keep the masses on track...

I know what you're saying, Fox, and I don't disagree---but you have to admit that both verses are a pretty good match. I will say that V 11 is probably a better one because of the 2 friends of Octave, and the monument words. So far, no other explanation for "octave" has ever surfaced. And BTW, his name isn't Octavio, it's really OCTAVE. (pronounced "ok TAHV" I assume)  There is an annual award given in his name for research in flying and aeronautics, which was won by such notables as Howard Hughes, a few of our early astronauts etc. But I can't dismiss Lane 2-20, two either. And that got me thinking...what if "lane 222 was another airpstrip we're looking for--a different one--but similar to the one at Kill Devil Hills? i.e., a small airstrip with the numbers 2 at one end and 22 at the other? That would satisfy the verse without any fudging. It wouldn't have to be the V matched to P 11, but it just might be something to mark the place whereever it is.  I mean, "Lane 222" was tried as a road, and a street name in several ways, but not as an airstrip...and it occurred to me while doing V11 that an airport is almost an ideal place to bury a casque. There are usually plenty of markers, the ground is usually shovel-friendly, and it would be a lot eaiser than digging in the middle of a city, or in a public park. There are small regioinal airports all over the place. Anyway, it's just another thought...

Good to have you back Fox

One of these days...hopefully in the very near future...I will be back up and running at home with some spare time to find us a casque...

the only standing member of a forest to the south... i'm sure this has already been mentioned, but, it could be buried beneath a tree... that would be a member of a forest... and there could be a forest to the south... just thought i'd say that.... -regulus

Regulus - see my posts a couple pages back, with links to pictures.

what i like about hampton park: "The City of Charleston Park Permits"  is right there------"-get permission to dig out" on 30 Mary Murray Drive "Two twenty two------washington's birthday-----"President Street" "Moultrie Street"----"weight and roots extended together saved the sight" "Citadel in the Night"------------"the Citadel" it looks to be on "Addlestone Avenue"-------"stone" this gazebo could be "the only standing member" hxxp://flickr.com/photos/mustangrolling/340803675/

of course the stone could just be somewhere around the gazebo  or where you get the park permits

I do not know if this has been talked about or not but the last line that said get permission to dig out could be the most helpful. If we need permission to dig out then he likely needed permission to burry the casque in the first place. This means that it is likely that someone knows this exact location. If we can find the location this verse ties into we may be able to find somebody that can lead us directly to the casque location or at least confirm the area.

Scottrocks: *smacking my forehead*  WOW! it seems so simple, if you are right.  Has anybody ever thought about that line of logic yet?  I have been trying to read as far back as I can on these boards, but the number of theories people have proposed as started to co-mingle.  I do think if you are right that you would have to have a pretty good idea of where the casque is before you can even try to ask for permission. So, has anybody thought of Scottrocks idea before?

i like it better as a riddle, like in "here is where you get the park permit", right there at hampton park. forest_blight aren't you close to charleston? i think most parks you have to get permission anyway, so why tell us to on this one verse and not the others?

Unknown: forest_blight aren't you close to charleston? Don't I wish! I absolutely love Charleston. Alas, I live in Kansas.

Forrest: I somehow would have guessed that you were in the northeast.  You seem to know the Boston search so well I thought you were in the area, or an hour or two away.  Even that far away I'm grateful for the way you keep helping me form ideas.

Thanks to Al Gore and his internets (and Google Earth!) I am now passingly familiar with several big cities

AHHH... Well, for a non-local you come across with an air of expertise.  Beyond that you've so far been a great sounding board for the few thin theories I can come up with [and I do appologize if I've accidently repeated theories].  I'm working out some thoughts I wish I could bounce off you but that I need to sleep on as they are not fully formed in my mind yet.  Until then.  --Ringo

I e-mailed this verse and image 2 to the South Carolina Historical Society. I said they can have atleast the key if they help us and we find the casque. I neede to do this because their research fees were kind of high. As of this writeing I have heard nothing.

An air of expertise...?...  Do tell  ;-)

If they do not work with me I will try the Charlston Historical Society they sound the same but they are not. This verse most likely goes with Charlston and an organization like this could help us decode it.

I tried PAYING the S.C. Historical Society for help a few months ago, and never heard back from them.

Their website said it could take several weeks to get information. It was top guy I e-mailed. If I do not hear from them shortly I will try the Charlston Historical Society if I can find the right one there are alot of them most focus on a paticular old house or part of town.

I did some checking and I would agree that this is likely Fort Moltair or that area. The thing is this is part of the National Park System. Does anybody know when it became part of the NPS. Does nayone know who administered it prier to the NPS and has anybody written the NPS for help. Did the NPS run this in the early 80's The clock that looks lie Ft. Sumpter could be clueing you into this area. If we can get the NPS to help they can likely hlep us pinpoint this casques location. If we find this casque we can eliminate Halifax as a possible site for the Canadian Casque.

scottrocks7 wrote:: The thing is this is part of the National Park System. Does anybody know when it became part of the NPS. Does nayone know who administered it prier to the NPS and has anybody written the NPS for help. Did the NPS run this in the early 80's The clock that looks lie Ft. Sumpter could be clueing you into this area. If we can get the NPS to help they can likely hlep us pinpoint this casques location. If we find this casque we can eliminate Halifax as a possible site for the Canadian Casque. I gotta ask, scott, how do you think the NPS can help to pinpoint this casque location?  If it was not part of the NPS when BP buried the casque, I think the possibility of them having any information about it would be extremely remote.  Especially since he didn't tell anyone where he buried the casques.  If it was a part of the NPS at the time, then the possibility is even more remote as I think it is crime to dig in a NP so I think he wouldn't have mentioned it to them.

digger7 wrote:: I gotta ask, scott, how do you think the NPS can help to pinpoint this casque location?  If it was not part of the NPS when BP buried the casque, I think the possibility of them having any information about it would be extremely remote.  Especially since he didn't tell anyone where he buried the casques.  If it was a part of the NPS at the time, then the possibility is even more remote as I think it is crime to dig in a NP so I think he wouldn't have mentioned it to them. Forgive me for saying this ... but in another thread... A treasure hunter (I forget who - at the moment) spent a full day last spring and fully explored Sullivan's Island and Fort Moultrie and discussed with NPS about the possibility. He found the white stone (a property bounder marker) He found a lone south tree (tweleve paces in from the boundary) He found the map - that matches the scheme of the mask - east of the lone tree. He found that it is just in from L'ON Street Spot was undisturbed and not erroded. He found that it was possible to secretly dig there in 1981. (coming in from the beach) He also found that TODAY he would get arrested if he had - a shovel a probe ground penetrating radar etc. I encourage others to re-read his account.  It is thorough, accurate, and complete. He didn't get permission, so he didn't pull it up.

This all sounds intresting I will have to review that thread. The NPS may be able to help us decode the rest of the verse and could advise us of any changes that may have taken place. BP would not have told the NPS anything. I may try to get my aunt who lives a few hours away from Charlston to try to find it but I am not making any promises. If they can find that one then my relatives that live in the San Fransisco area may be more helpful on that casque. They thought it was rediculuss I do not think they understood it. My next focus will be the Florida Casque if we can definately match that image and verse we can eliminate St. John Newfundland as a Canadian site and thus greatly increase the likelyhood that Image 11 is the Canadian Casque image. One last thing: we may have to let the NPS keep the Casque to get them to let us dig there.

Unless you want to discover a one-foot square hole, about three feet deep, surrounded by reporters, it would probably be best to keep it to yourself, except to ask very generalized trivia-type questions about the area.  Also, for those of you talking about renting ground probes, radars, bomb-sniffing dogs, CSI's, and infrared x-ray glasses, (:)), I can at least give you a good idea for something cheap and effective that is easily obtained:  from my days in Serbia, I picked up a very interesting piece of mine detection equipment- a mine probe.  The actual device is only about 1.5 ft long, but you can get a long skinny spike made out of ceramic for dirt cheap.  It actually doesn't do anything-- you just stick it into the ground (slowly!) at about a 35 degree angle, and when it hits something solid, you gently 'scrape' the side of the object; you can tell if it is made of plastic, stone, wood, metal, etc. by the feel.  The probe itself just has to be solid.  One of the things that held up Egbert was his false-positives on hollow objects.  "Tap Tap Thunk! There it is!  Oh wait--tree root."  You want to avoid using anything thicker than, say, a pen.

It is a bunch of reporters the governing bodies of most of these parks do not want. Thus useing their help at locations we are fairly certain are the correct locations can be helpful. These groups are not likely to call a media circus. And hey a media circus may not be such a bad thing it would get a whole lot more people involved in this hunt.

Greeaaaat.  LOL.  There may be a case or two where it is unavoidable (getting permission may involve telling someone WHY you need it), but it's inadvisable.  Media circus aside, you wouldn't want someone hearing about it, the digging it up and NOT saying a word to any one would you?

You would have to know who to talk to and when. In this case the NPS would likely have us dig at a time when the park is closed. It would be a good idea to talk to as few people as possible though. In this perticular case the one group that could have dug it up and not told would be the SC Historical Society but I personally do not think so. This is an issue that we will need to look into prier to any dig. We will have to think about how we aproach this.

Already have---  It is not in any way suspicious to carry around a "walking stick, (With a 3.5' hash mark or something)"  And you could sharpen the end of it for probing.  The shovel is fairly easy too-- An E-Tool fits in a backpack and, best of all, is collapsible.  You shouldn't pay more than five or ten bucks for one at any Army/Navy Surplus.

I just sent this information to my aunt who lives a few hours northwest of Charlston. Told her briefly about the discoveries made at Ft. Moultre. I am not makeing any promises but I hope we can find this casque before my other aunt from California comes in May. Finding this casque could get her to help us find the San Francsisco casque. It is possible we will have to let the NPS keep the Casque and key to let us dig. As long as they display them for all to see I personally do not care.

Why would they want it?  Especially as you could EASILY persuade them that it was just junk, especially when an antique appraiser will tell you that it's value is almost purely sentimental since it is only about 25 years old, and deliberately buried...

I agree. Why would they want it or even need it?

If you dug and found the skeletons of Raleigh, Octave Chanute, and a mysterious four-armed creature with several heads frozen forever in their last Flamenco Dance forever, they might take issue with you keeping them... But the Egg-man wasn't forced to give up his casque...(koo koo kachoo).

Now that is funny KLBT.  Let's keep it quiet about the Flamenco Dance relic...it is proudly being displayed in my den and I would really be bummed if the NPS came and took it away.

Their is a good chance the NPS may not want the casque. The thing is they would likely be reluctant to let us dig. Thus letting them have the casque may be necessary  to get them to let us dig. It is a trade off we should be willing to make.

if there is any hesitation on their part, giving them a basically worthless isn't going to change their mind. that is just rediculous.

WHY I'M SURE THAT V.5 IS REFERRING TO KITTY HAWK AND THE WRIGHT BROTHER'S MEMORIAL NATIONAL PARK: Lane Two twenty two : At the memorial, there are two "lanes".  Lane #1 is the airstrip for the First Flight. This is basically a small track marking the direction and length of the flight. I call it lane #1 because it marks the FIRST flight. Logical. Lane 2 is the actual real airstrip for small planes. At one end the numbers painted on the strip are 02 and at the other, 20. So the verse, IMHO, should read: Lane 2: 20, 02.  Again, very logical. You'll see an arc of lights There is a beacon on top of the "wing" memorial. I don't know about an actual arc, but there is a light up there...and there may be others. I could not find any pics taken at night to know. Weight and roots extended Together saved the site in 1931 when the memorial had been planned, the architect planted beach grass all over the dune to strengthen the shifting sand by their ROOTS. The WEIGHT of the concrete of the actual wing memorial could not have stood upon the dune otherwise. When the root systems had taken hold, which took a year, it was safe then to build the wing, with 1200 tons of concrete (lots of WEIGHT.) The memorial is made: Of granite walls 'nuff said? Wind swept halls I believe these lines are borrowed from John Gillespie's famous poem "High Flight", which mentions "wind-swept heights" and "footless halls of air."  It's a simple matter to believe they are compressed into one image. Citadel in the night A citadel is a fortress--and the B-17 bomber was known as the "Flying Fortress". There's another interpretation, though...see below. A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight The Wright Brothers did not, as popular apocrypha dictates, gain information about flying by studying birds . They did, however, by studying KITES--which ascend and are about as wingless as it gets. In a quote from a letter from Orville Wright in 1941 to J. Horace Lytle, he states: "I cannot think of any part bird flight had in the development of human flight excepting an inspiration....after we had thought out certain principles, we then watched the bird to see whether it used the same principles. In a few cases we did detect the same thing in bird flight. Learning the secret of flight from a bird was a good deal like learning the secret of magic from a magician, after you once know the trick and know what to look for you see things that you did not notice when you did not know exactly what to look for." Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south Probably, this means beneath the branches of a tree somewhere. Unless someone can think of some other kind of "forest", i.e., a forest of buildings? a forest of standing stones? Perhaps a forest of sand dunes? The only problem with this is that there is no SINGLE tree (at least none visible) on the satellite pic of the memorial grounds, and there are plenty of forests to the south! This would have to be investigated in person, I'm assuming. White stone closest There are four white stones on Lane 1--the original airstrip for the First Flight. I am presuming this stone is the one closest to the "only standing member" (whatever that member actually is). At twelve paces From the west side Get permission To dig out. Easy. 12 paces from the white stone. Then ask, and dig. In my opinion, there is little doubt about all the verse except the "only standing member." I don't think the citadel in the night is going to be anything as important as finding this. Also, "citadel in the night" might simply be referring to one of the numerous lighthouses in the area. When else are lighthouses "citadels" against the forces of nature? They certainly aren't much use during the daylight hours--in other words, they aren't citadels THEN. Anyway, that's my opinion. Now.....which IMAGE does this go with? I'm going to say #3--it has too many airplane/aviation/flight images in it to not be at least considered. And it also boasts an outline of Roanoke Island, which is just south of the memorial. I am doubtful there is anything at the Elizabethan Gardens, or along the shore in that area, and I don't think that V. 11 is apt anymore--I believe that v. 11 may be pointing us to Baltimore and goes with p. 9. I know there are pervasive arguments for pairing v. 11 with p. 3--but so far, none of the images (with the exception of two) in p. 3 have matched with the verse or the possible locations. I think there are more matches if you use v. 5. Of course, this could all be incorrect, but I'm trying to simplify the ideas, not bury them in layers of meaning and possibility. I took the most obvious meanings and used those, rather than doing so much deep research that it gets lost. (Not that research is bad, mind you....!)

I knew it was bound to happen sooner or later...yup, I have to disagree with you on several points. First and formost...you try to explain your conclusion about Kitty Hawk and the WB Memorial by saying that you no longer believe V11 applies.  It was with these following words (from V11):  "By dauntless and inconquerable Determination" that got us to the WB Memorial in the first place.  Without these words, we would have never come to the Memorial and had that not happened, I see NO WAY you could have found yourself there with V5.  Sure, once we have the location, some things fit in nicely...but... Remember, V11 also gave us "Pass two friends of octave"...  the 2 friends of Octave ARE the Wright Brothers.  V11 also gave us: "the wing" which sounds like the Memorial itself; "Ride the man of oz" = Washington BAUM Bridge; "Dark Forest" = a quote from Paul Green's 'The Lost Colony'... “walked away through the dark forest into history” & the sign at the Elizabethan Garden has those same exact words at the main entrance.; etc..etc..etc..  I am not going to go through all of those again, you know where to find them.  All I have to say about this is: WITHOUT all of these tie ins, I find it impossible to find yourself at the WB Memorial with an entirely different V. You then discuss how the WB did not study the flight of birds but studied kite flying.  To prove this statement, you quote a letter from O.W. which is ALL about birds and not once mentions kites. Yes, some of the things seem to fit a little bit, but, once again...I think that ONLY AFTER this location was found via another V, these ideas of yours a made to fit. I do agree with you on one point.  That is that there is a casque 'near' the WB Memorial...that is, across the bridge to the Lost Colony...but V5 is not the way there.

I was waiting for this one. Actually, I am not going to DISagree with your conclusions about V. 11. I think there may be a casque there as well. But...we have not found one yet. That's the biggest problem with the verse--that we have not found one yet, NOR have we been able to successfully pair it up with a painting. I wanted to see if there was some way we could do that, and I think mine fits as well as the other one--matching parts notwithstanding. No matter how many times we go over and over the Roanoke Island image and the parts of the location, we have not been able to fix on a location. Not even Regulus, who actually went there and DUG, could do it. So I re-thought it. And I noticed something about the two verses that led to finds in Cleve. and Chicago. I noticed that they were really very straightforward. They didn't rely on obscure literature. They didn't rely on odd facts or tiny little matching parts (such as the emblem on the bench.) They were rather broadly defined, in fact. Both of them. I started re-reading the verses and I'm coming up with interpretations that are simpler, less layered, more pointed. And when I did, this verse spoke more to me about aviation than the other one did. Octave friends, sure--but you know what? I have several books on the Wright Brothers (I'm a bit of a buff) and he is not mentioned ONCE. Not once . I live in Ohio--and I've been to Dayton several times. I've been to Richmond Indiana a couple of times. I've been to the Smithsonian Air and Space museum three times. Not one time is Octave Chanute WELL KNOWN as a friend of the Wright Brothers.  So I have to believe, despite the matching inference we DID find here, that "octave" may mean something other than Octave Chanute. It may indeed be its simplest meaning: a group of 8. Same thing with "the man of oz." Oz in the verse is not capitalized. Other names in other verses are all capitalized. MAybe this "oz" is not a name then? Maybe it's something else. And I know I posted this one before: that the "man" of oz (or Oz) may indeed be something other than L. Frank Baum--it could mean the only "man" that the familiar Oz books ever mentioned: the Tin Man. And the verse also says, "ride the man of oz". Ride the man ? You don't "ride" a man, and you dont' "ride" a bridge. Again, I'm just trying to reinterpret and simplify the ideas. I don't believe they were ever intended to be as complicated as we seem to have made them.  The cleveland and Chicago finds were not complicated--yet as we've seen from the Chicago solve, there are several interpretations that CAN be made!  (M&B for example.) Do you see where I'm headed with this? I'm not trying to refute anything already discovered--only re-interpret the verses and then see if there is a picture they may fit with. We don't have to agree. However, if we're going to keep rehashing, I'd like to throw my ideas out there too and hopefully we'll see something new.

I think you nailed this one shecrab! I agree with your verse solution almost completely. This match to the Wright Brothers Memorial is what Turtle123456 and I posted earlier this year. I was hoping it would just take time for members to discover the truth in our posted solutions either by eventually spending time understanding them or through their own problem solving. I'm guessing you came up with these matches without even looking at our solutions. That would mean you reached the same conclusions we did without being biased by our posts. Which would be just as cool! Hey, as long as we get to the solutions, it doesn't matter too much how we got there. But boy, waiting for the light to come on for someone on any of the solutions we posted was honestly driving me crazy. The cool thing about this verse match is that if it gains the traction it deserves it will expose the mismatching problems that this forum has developed for other locations. Turtle and my interpretation of Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south is that "the only standing member" is the Wright Memorial. This fits for a couple reasons. "Beneath" works well due to the raised position of the Memorial on top of the sand dune that overlooks the whole landscape. "South" works well for the memorial too due to its position to white stones to the north. Don't get too hung up on "forest".  When we have only one standing member of a forest it no longer looks like a forest. And to fit BP's "nothing means what it says" pattern forest would not be a real forest. I know you don't have full confidence in the You’ll see an arc of lights match, but I think you got that one right too. I believe the arc of lights is the sweeping beacon on top of the memorial. Which, by the way, can be seen at night (or anytime) on this webcam. hxxp://monumentcam.kdhnc.com/view/index.shtml I agree with your approach you used to solve this. We are all making this way too difficult by adding extra layers and angles to the solution process. Nice job!

Thanks, Sonoran. I actually DID read your posts---I read all the posts. But I'd already had this place in mine before you posted your solutions. I believe my original ideas are under the Image 3 thread because that's how I had originally come to these conclusions--to me that suit of armor just looks like a paraphrased airplane--with the "struts" under the arms and the numerous aviation metaphors all through the picture. Either way, I am starting to believe that there is just a really simple way of interpreting each of these verses. I am also beginning to think that because so much time has passed and there have been so many changes to the physical landscapes from 1981 to now, that the verses may be the only way we'll find the missing casques. From studying the two known solutions, it became clear that the verses describe ONE way to find the casque, and the Paintings show another--or images surrounding the solution--but they don't show the actual solution! They do both have one major feature that is nearby--in the Cleveland solve, it is the columns and the wall of the GCG--in the Chicago solve it is the water tower and the gate. The rest is simply supporting metaphor--very vaguely portrayed! So we have in Image 3, a suit of armor with arms outstretched. Some believe this is because of the Elizabethan Gardens on Roanoke Island. I don't, because the armor is not Elizabethan in the slightest--it's not ANYTHING from ANY era! But the arms of the figure are outstretched--and have struts under them--and so do old airplanes; that is just the most obvious thing about it, actually. Yes, there is a vague outline of Roanoke Island in the wall cracks. Well, Kitty Hawk is extremely close to Roanoke Island. No surprise there. There are little aviation metaphors all through the picture--parts of the armor look like parts of airplanes. The bells could stand for Bell, who makes airplane engines. The ornaments and patterns on the armor look like cockpit controls and dials. Et cetera. Besides....nothing says there can't be TWO casques within the same narrow area--right? The way that verse 11 fits the Roanoke idea is actually pretty satisfyingly close--"white is in color," the "man of oz" etc. etc.....all can be readily and quickly found in the area. Yet---we still haven't found anything! Why is that? Why can't we find something that pins it down? Maybe because it's deliberately close --but not correct! That's often how riddles work--and someone who put this together might have found it amusing to think that one of their verses could stand for ANOTHER solution that did not use that verse. Tricky and diabolical, but a good hard puzzle. I think we can find another interpretation for V. 11. Speaking of obvious clues in the paintings, one of the biggest is the lat/long numbers. They appear in all the paintings, but they get summarily ignored when a bunch of ideas are presented--as if they shouldn't matter. Well, they need to matter. They were correct in both solves for the found casques. Just because you find a building with an ornament that looks like the pattern on the girl's dress, or the checkerboard pattern on a collar, or something like that, we cannot go off half-cocked and think that means we've found the area. Checkerboard patterns, for instance, are very common--from the Purina company to the flag of Maryland, they are pretty much found everywhere. There should be at least one unique feature in every painting. There are in the two solved paintings. But it is my considered opinion that in order to solve these puzzles, one must really, thoroughly and CORRECTLY interpret the verses. In P. 6---Houston--the verse fits and the picture has a BIG clue: animal heads. Animals=zoo. The number 982--the train that was in the zoo. The general location=Friendship=Texas (the state motto). Lots of other supporting things in both v. and p. --except for one thing: In the center of four alike, small split three winged and slight" (which is where the casque is buried) has NO interpretation that fits. Four what? Alike how? Small AND slight? Split? three winged? No one came up with anything that fit these things. My idea was fences. In the middle of four fences--which are items that are alike: in other words, not three fences and a wall, not two fences and a rock garden--but four things that have the same identity . Small --a short fence--maybe one panel only; split --a split rail fence; three winged --three wing-shaped panels (like a right triangle with a curved hypotenuse); and slight --a fence that isn't TALL. In other words, at an intersection where four differently MADE fences are visible, but no one would consider them "alike" because they don't look alike--yet they ARE alike--they are all------ fences .  [NOTE: three-winged is a hyphenated adjective. In the verse, the phrase reads three winged (noun + adjective) not three-winged. I think that is deliberate. In other words it's saying 3, winged , not 3-winged.] But I don't know if that was possible and it's too late to know now since the old zoo is gone. Sorry for the length of this reply. I know I'm long-winded, and a lot of this has been said before. But it bears repeating that we need to simplify these interpretations--at least I believe we do.

shecrab wrote:: And the verse also says, "ride the man of oz". Ride the man? You don't "ride" a man, and you dont' "ride" a bridge. Sonoran wrote:: "South" works well for the memorial too due to its position to white stones to the north. Don't get too hung up on "forest".  When we have only one standing member of a forest it no longer looks like a forest. And to fit BP's "nothing means what it says" pattern forest would not be a real forest. But you do ride a ferry. Thomas A. Baum founded the Roanoke Ferry Co. in 1926. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Ferry_System Shecrab, the thrust of your posts seems to be a plea for simplicity. I agree completely that our thinking about the puzzles does not need to be any more difficult than necessary. But I think my idea of simplicity must differ substantially from yours. When a verse says "land near the window," and one of the paintings has a LAND beside a WINDOW, and that land happens to match several details in the self-same verse, I consider the pairing obvious and simple. The verse says we are supposed to ride the man of oz TO that land, not to another land near it. That is a simple, literal interpretation of the verse. Even if "forest" is metaphorical, it must have a meaning or it wouldn't be in the verse. You can't simply ignore parts of the verse you think are irrelevant, just for convenience. If the only standing member is the memorial (which I'll grant as a possibility), you have to be able to explain why it's the only standing member of a (real or metaphorical) "forest."

I often wondered why bury it at twelve paces? Why not 8 or 10? No reasons I came up with seemed to ring true until I looked at a photo on the internet showing a sign in front of the Wright Brothers Memorial takeoff boulder. First, I think BP wanted to get the digger away from the memorial stones. He shows some of his concern about digging in this National Memorial Park by adding Get permission To dig out. But twelve paces still made no sense until I saw this picture. The Wright Brother's first flight lasted 12 seconds. What a great way to mix that history into this verse.

Actually, FB, I was very much asking to simplify--but our ideas aren't that far off. I know the "land near the window" line is in V 11--but it doesn't have to be the land in p.3.  It doesn't HAVE to be. Yes, that land is Roanoke Island, and it's near a window--but there may be another way to interpret this line; Also, we still, after extensive research in the Roanoke I. areas including actual digging, have not found a casque there. Nor can we pinpoint a location! I just don't think it's the answer--that was all I'm saying.  And as for the forest being metaphorical--I do not believe it is. I think it's a real forest--of trees . (Which is still there, btw.) I too bristle when people pick one or two items from a verse and base an entire idea on them. That's why I'm spending a lot of time trying to find this "only standing member" -- and I may have indeed found it. Check out the picture here: This depicts the Wright Brothers' camp on Kill Devil Hill. You will notice that there are two lone trees in the pic, and that their camp cabin is literally BENEATH one of them. This led me to wonder about 1981. Neither of these trees is there NOW. But one of them may indeed have been there in 1981.  OR some OTHER tree. I think we are looking for a tree that WAS there, but is not there NOW. Beneath that lone, single tree, is our casque. Where was that tree located?  Check out the picture of the white stone:  see the area to one side? The bare one? (Or that brownish area further toward the horizon? it's another possibility). That bare spot would be just about 12 paces away. A pace being about 3', plus or minus a few inches. Of course, this might not be the stone we need... there are four stones. We're supposed to find the one 'closest' to either the only standing member, OR the forest to the south. The initial takeoff point stone may or may not be the correct one. There probably exists somewhere an aerial view of the area in 1981--but I don't know where to look for it. Only a foot-traffic search of the actual ground would be fruitful or useful here. Either that, or someone's good memory of the place at the time. And Sonoran, no offense about not believing the metaphorical forest, but I LOVED the idea about the 12 paces. I think you're correct here. And I think we need to dispatch someone to this memorial park to ask some pointed questions and get some permissions. And take a shovel....

shecrab wrote:: I too bristle when people pick one or two items from a verse and base an entire idea on them. That's why I'm spending a lot of time trying to find this "only standing member" shecrab wrote:: The way that verse 11 fits the Roanoke idea is actually pretty satisfyingly close--"white is in color," the "man of oz" etc. etc.....all can be readily and quickly found in the area. Yet---we still haven't found anything! Why is that? Why can't we find something that pins it down? Maybe because it's deliberately close --but not correct! shecrab wrote:: In P. 6---Houston--the verse fits and the picture has a BIG clue: animal heads. Animals=zoo. The number 982--the train that was in the zoo. The general location=Friendship=Texas (the state motto). Lots of other supporting things in both v. and p. --except for one thing: In the center of four alike, small split three winged and slight" (which is where the casque is buried) has NO interpretation that fits. Four what? Alike how? Small AND slight? Split? three winged? No one came up with anything that fit these things. My idea was fences. In the middle of four fences--which are items that are alike: in other words, not three fences and a wall, not two fences and a rock garden--but four things that have the same identity . Small --a short fence--maybe one panel only; split --a split rail fence; three winged --three wing-shaped panels (like a right triangle with a curved hypotenuse); and slight --a fence that isn't TALL. In other words, at an intersection where four differently MADE fences are visible, but no one would consider them "alike" because they don't look alike--yet they ARE alike--they are all------ fences .  [NOTE: three-winged is a hyphenated adjective. In the verse, the phrase reads three winged (noun + adjective) not three-winged. I think that is deliberate. In other words it's saying 3, winged , not 3-winged.] One or two items...?..  Really?  Did you just say that?  'Almost' everything in V11 leads us to the Elizabethan Gardens or the Lost Colony area. which sounds to me like you think that since we havent found it YET, it MUST be somewhere else.....but.... you go on to say yet we havent found this one either but you keep working on different ideas for the four alike (which is exactly what needs to be done). Using your reasoning....it must be OBVIOUS that NO casques are located in Houston, San Fran, New Orleans, Milwaukee, Charleston, etc...since we haven't found them yet. I am sorry but I just can't follow that kind of logic... and I am soooooo glad that Sir Egg couldn't either.

I hope this one goes with Charlston because I was going to send my Aunt who lives about three hours from Charlston after it once we have found or accounted for the STL Casque.

Unknown: Using your reasoning....it must be OBVIOUS that NO casques are located in Houston, San Fran, New Orleans, Milwaukee, Charleston, etc...since we haven't found them yet. Oh come on, Fox...you KNOW doggone good and well that isn't how I mean it. The Houston casque wasn't found NOT because the v. and p. weren't matched up correctly, but because the ZOO was razed!! And you know this as well. I think you're just trying to find something that will refute what I say--and for the life of me, I can't understand why. You know that what I meant by "one or two things" was exactly THAT--an entire solve based on one or two lines from a verse, and no p. matches--NOT a good match for a verse OR a P. !  Sheesh!! First things first: Let's discuss this supposed Elizabethan gardens/Lost Colony solution: 1.  the Verse partially matches, yes---some things in V. 11 can be pointed directly to the site on Roanoke Island. But there are some definitive and IMPORTANT things that cannot be linked: a. After circle and square -- yes, it might be referring to the Elizabethan Gardens, but it also might NOT be--since we know for a fact that Preiss did not bury any casques in public or private flower beds, and also that the E. gardens is highly protected because of the layout and the plantings that are there.  Is  it in the gardens? Not a chance . What's beyond the gardens? No one has found anything that points to a place a casque was buried. No one has found a place where it even might be. Regulus found a bench. he dug under it. Nothing.  Someone earlier found a gate. Nothing. Beyond that is the beach. b. Two maps ?  Which two?  No one agrees on this statement or what it means. Map of the area and map of the gardens? O-kaaaaay----but isn't that relatively obvious? I mean, like "duh obvious?" Of course you'd need two maps. Why put this in the verse if it's so bleeding obvious? Makes little sense to me, and it needs to. c. Mica and driftwood We've gone over and over this one. Mica is NOT SAND, no matter what you want it to be, and even though it MIGHT be a component of sand, it is a very SMALL component. Yes, NC has mica mines, and it's a source for mica, but so are other places. Driftwood points to a beach, naturally--would Preiss bury a casque on a beach so that the tide would be absolutely certain to carry it off or change the composition of it, or drown it under water? I highly doubt it. 'Beckoning path to mica and driftwood' could be a path to the beach--yet, this area was explored unsuccessfully. Maybe it means something ELSE? d.  Last touched and first seen standing: no one has come up with anything useful here either. Could be a flag. Could be the earth itself. Could be a tall tree. Could be a pole, a cliff, a fencepost, a bench seat--but NO ONE has agreed on what is IS. 2.  So after these uncertainties, what certainties do we have? The man of oz. White in color. Dark forest. July and August. To me, that's not the entire verse--not even "almost everything" in the verse (as you stated.) And "man of oz" might not even mean Baum--but the TIN MAN or TIK-TOK, or the SHAGGY MAN. All those were "men of Oz." Yet...The fact that Oz is not capitalized really bothers me, also. Oz with an intial cap is a place---oz without a cap is--what?  Slang for Australian, or the abbreviation for Ounce. A prison show on HBO. Maybe even a shortened version of the name Oswald--(like on the HBO series.) 3. Besides one small item--an outline of what might be Roanoke Island--there is nothing in the P. that matches directly. We have a suit of armor--which could be referring to Elizabethan--but which ISN'T Elizabethan by any stretch of the imagination. We have outstretched arms, which might be referring to wings (look north at the ---) but which also point out that the V. says not wing S (plural) but WING (singular) so why depict both?  Okay, this is a bit pedantic--but it just doesn't fit THAT well. And the items I mentioned can be fitted to a bunch of other ideas. 4. There are plenty of images in the P. that fits the WB Memorial as EQUALLY well as the V seems to fit the R. Island ideas. 5. There are plenty of images in the p. that ought to be fitted into a v. or solve---and these are not: like the little "spiked ball" on the armor's right wrist which looks like a mace (why hasn't Mace (the name) been explored?); the 'horns' on the helmet,the 'hook' from which the key ring dangles; the key and the ring itself, the image Sonoran found of the outline of the standing stone (and inscription), the fact that the armor's arms look like airplane wings completel with struts and the decorations on his chest plate like airplane gauges...these would be summarily ignored by your theory--so that it can fit the P. in with v. 11. . 6. and the final thing: No casque was recovered on Roanoke Island .  No one has yet dug in the WB Memorial area or even fully explored it. Unlike Houston, where we CAN'T find it, no matter how accurate a match we have, this one wasn't attempted with the same diligence. I don't have any argument with the Houston find. I still have plenty of issues with Milwaukee, and do not believe the San Francisco ideas much at all--and as for New Orleans and Charleston?  Well, I found I could fit in both verse and picture to St. Louis, Mo. for the suppoed "new orleans" solution, and I can also fit the Charleston p. and v. into Niagara Falls!!  So now what? So, Fox, if you want to pick on me, fine--go ahead--but remember, that you don't have the answers either. You only WANT the answers to be Roanoke Island.  And why single me out for your critiques? There are a lot of people here--not just me. Other ideas have been bandied about--and some of them are downright odd. But you always come back to MINE for deep criticism. Why IS that? I'd be paranoid, but I'd have to care more. (just being funny here, 'k?) No, seriously, look back at your posts--I'm almost the only one you really pick apart like this. I think you have an issue.

Unknown: why hasn't Mace (the name) been explored? shecrab, sometimes I think we like to pick your ideas apart because they're so darn plausible. Other suggestions I've seen are just too bizarre to warrant serious attention. Yours are different. Fox is pulling your hair because he likes you. Ah, but it has been explored. See my reply in the Image 3 thread from Feb. 8 of this year.

I dont mean to pick on you shecrab...you have a lot of really good ideas.  I think it is just that you seem to pick Vs & Ps that seem pretty obvious if not near concrete to work on.  In your long and well put reply to me, you stated: "I still have plenty of issues with Milwaukee, and do not believe the San Francisco ideas much at all--and as for New Orleans and Charleston?" Are these issues with the Ps or the Vs?  As for the P's, I dont know how much more concrete those can be. "and I can also fit the Charleston p. and v. into Niagara Falls!!  So now what?" Case in point... How can P2 go anywhere but Charleston?  It has Ft. Sumter as clear as day.  And if that doesnt do it, the ENTIRE map of the Charleston coastline is in the large mask.  P7 has the lat/lon for N.O., crescents abound for the Crescent City, as well as "Preservation" and the whole Mardi Gras theme...mask, color combination & all.  And P10 doesnt seem like it can be anything BUT Milwaukee.  It has the rhebus puzzle Mill + Walk + Key as well as a PERFECT match for the Milwaukee City Hall... [img] These are concrete.  I honestly feel that the P10-V8 pairing leads us to Milwaukee, the P6-V9 leads us to FOY park, the P3-V11 leads us to somewhere around the Elizabethan Gardens / Lost Colony.  Even though we have not located the casques (yet) I believe with a little more work on these pairings, casques will be found.

Unknown: Case in point... How can P2 go anywhere but Charleston? Awwww, geee guys!! [Sallyfieldvoice] You like me! You really like me![/sallyfieldvoice]  Hee hee.... Well, okay....but but but but.... See, here's what I think: that when you get all wrapped around something, you fail to see new things--or different things. Not that there's anyone here like that---(me included) but... When Fox said: Well, that's JUST my point! Before I'd finished reading the threads, when I was fairly new here, I decided to pick that Picture apart and see what I came up with, and I found a whole idea that had not been explored, and actually worked! Of course, most people here are wedded to the idea that P. 2 depicts Charleston. But it can also depict the entire Niagara Falls area--and that even includes the map. Yes. Check it out. It really CAN fit. Not only that but the Pear can stand for the main fruit crop in the NF area, (it is famous for its pear wine); the butterfly could stand for the butterfly conservatory and the wings have "whirlpools" on them, the girl's crossed arms symbolize the bridge, the lion stands for Lyon's Creek Parkway, the mask with the two symbols (stripes on one side, stars on the other) could be a symbol for the two countries that NF straddles, the three vertical lines under the eye of one mask is a symbol for water, (especially cascading water), the clock could symbolize the floral clock-----and that's just the Picture! The verse I used was Verse 10. "in the shadow of the grey giant:" the falls themselves are the grey giant. "Find the arm that extends over the narrow path" was referring to either one of the bridges, or the slender arm of the observation tower, which does indeed extend over a narrow path. "In summer you'll often hear a whirring sound" means the helicopters and aerocar that only operate in summer.  "Cars abound" yes they do--there is a parking area right next to the falls and river that extends for quite a long ways. "although the sign nearby speaks of Indies native" was the sign that referred to Jose Maria Heredia, an epic poet from Cuba.  He wrote an epic poem called, “Niagara.”  He is also the "Rhapsodic Man" spoken of later---rhapsodic in this case referring to epic poetry. "The natives still speak of him of Hard word in 3 Vols." was this:  This is talking about Jacques Cartier. Him of "hard" word---Cartier is also a well-known diamond merchant. Diamonds are the hardest substance known.  So "hard word" becomes diamond word becomes Cartier!  And it is well known that Cartier explored the region and probably named the falls and the river. The 3 Vols ---three vols is not VOLUMES. It's not books or quantities. It's literally, VOLS. That's a french word meaning "Flights".  THREE FLIGHTS. Flights are steps, stairs, or trips . Cartier made three trips to the region, three trips to the new world.  The "natives still speak of him" and they do indeed. He's written in all the literature. As well as being the biggest thing to have hit the region since the natives (both native populations AND the current denizens) have lived there. Then, "take twice as many east steps as the hour or more"--very ambiguous here--but the hour in the picture is TWO, and the steps would therefore be FOUR...I do not believe he really means individual steps. But that's up for debate. "From the middle of one branch of the v": either the v is the river itself, or it is the Queen Victoria Parkway...or maybe just a branching path. I could not tell without being there. "Look down (what you sort of HAVE to do at the falls--that's literally where all the action is!)  and see simple roots in rhapsodic man's soil": well, again, I think you'd have to be there to figure this out properly, but certainly the rhapsodic man has been identified here.  "Or gaze north toward the isle of B"  BIRD Island. And yes, it's north. So you see?  All these things FIT--as well as other things. And this is exactly what I was talking about. I was certain this P. and V. were the Canadian casque location--and I'm still not convinced they AREN'T! (The verse especially fits well.) As for Milwaukee, I have no doubt that the casque is in Milwaukee, even in Lake Park. But I think we're exploring the wrong part of the park. That's the issue I have. I'm not doubting the rest. I have absolutely NO DOUBTS about FOY Park for 6+9. The "SELOY" anacrostic clinched it for me beyond a shadow of doubt. Would that the rest were that clear! Now N.O.--P. 7?, that's a different story. You can make just as good a case for St. Louis out of that image. My points for that one are in the appropriate thread. We can't even agree on the right V. for that P. Some say 7, some say 2. ALong with P. 9, it's the worst of the bunch for pinning down. I will review once again the thread for V. 3 for "Mace." I don't recall it. Anyway, that's my devils' advocating for the day. I regret that I probably will not be on this forum much in the coming week---I have to go to Harrisburg PA for a conference. I wish we had a V 0r P for Harrisburg. I'd scour the city! And thanks, guys, for complimenting me--and yes--even for the criticism. It sparks good debate.

I realize that this is not the proper thread for Milwaukee, but it seemed to be the place to ask this... Shecrab: "As for Milwaukee, I have no doubt that the casque is in Milwaukee, even in Lake Park. But I think we're exploring the wrong part of the park. That's the issue I have. I'm not doubting the rest." Shecrab, (There is no sarcasm or snideness in this post...It is a genuine appeal for your ideas.) If you have any ideas about where to search in Lake Park, will you please share them...? What part of the park do you think we should be searching? Long ago I went on a "birch-search" taking verse 8 literally. On this photo: Number 1 is a very large dead-for-a-long-time birch. Number 2 is a very young birch sapling...probably was not alive in 1982. Number 3 is another medium-sized dead-for-a-long-time birch. Number 4 is a small-to-medium dead-for-a-long-time birch. Number 5 is the location at which you find yourself after you have walked 100 paces from below the bridge. There are no birches...dead or alive...at the number 5 location. I have not found any other birches along Lincoln Memorial Drive going either South or North from the Number 5 location...or in the Lighthouse Ravines. Where would you suggest that I search...using your outside-the-box thinking...with a fresh perspective...do you have any suggestions? AP

AP, I DO have a suggestion for a place to dig---but it will have to wait until I get home from this conference, as my materials are all there. I hope you don't feel put off by this!! Is that all right? I have limited time on this hotel computer...and don't have any of my notes here (though I did bring my book.) I have a map area that was not explored, even though it was mentioned a couple of times. So as soon as I'm home, I'll post the locale.

Shecrab, Have a profitable stay in PA. I look forward to hearing your ideas when you get home. AP

forest_blight wrote:: shecrab, if you visit that link I posted, you'll see three more definitions of "pace." Oh...so it's five feet. Then I stand (or walk) corrected. I remember reading somewhere that it was 3 feet, but I couldn't tell you where or when. Okay, then not 36 feet, but 60. Thanks for posting the link.

animal painter wrote:: The 100 "steps" brings you out to the clearing at the end of the ravine...at the first young birch...which is where I think BP meant it to end.  (Although we have never found any trace of an actual birch tree...) AP Gonna post to this in the Milwaukee thread....

boogieman wrote:: [ I am forced to believe that the landmarks for which BP was alluding to were thought to be permanent at one time. I was under the impression BP said he didnt worry about the permanence of landmarks because he assumed the puzzles would be solved in very short order.

You maybe right Malted, but still, if i were going to bury a casque, and I'm not as smart as BP was, I would bury it where it would not be disturbed, including being disturbed by growing roots.

when assuming the casque would only stay buried for a year or less, roots wouldnt be an issue at all. Look at the Clevland caque it was buried in such a way that the continuous freezing and thawing of the ground in the planter box pretty much crushed it. BP wasnt planning for the boxes to stay in the ground that long. And the Chicago box was buried in a area where tree roots would have grown, had not the nearest trees been cut down after the box was placed.

Unknown: Unknown: when assuming the casque would only stay buried for a year or less, roots wouldnt be an issue at all. Look at the Clevland caque it was buried in such a way that the continuous freezing and thawing of the ground in the planter box pretty much crushed it. BP wasnt planning for the boxes to stay in the ground that long. And the Chicago box was buried in a area where tree roots would have grown, had not the nearest trees been cut down after the box was placed. Point taken.  You are right.  Maybe I know something BP didn't then.  I once cut out a 12 ft section of tree root growing into my patio.  The very next summer, the darned thing grew back almost twice that. The Cleveland and Chicago sites, other than the trees, are not disturbed today.  The landmarks are still there.  Ten by thirteen are gone which is why BP helped them out.  So, he used trees to help locate the casque.  That's unfortunate for us. The birch may be a birch afterall.  Would the other landmarks stiil be there?  What are they?  I hope the're still there.

The children's zoo in houston has changed radically. If there was a casque in New Orleans... well.... and any casque that was buried on a beach would almost definitely be gone. but we can hope.... I.e. the casque in SF, one of the possible spots had an irrigation line excavated through it. What keeps me hoping that was not the spot was there is no picture of the "view" from that spot hidden in image 1... so I cross my fingers and keep looking. and I think the chicago spot was torn up completely just as short time ago.

boogieman wrote:: The birch may be a birch afterall.  Would the other landmarks stiil be there?  What are they?  I hope the're still there. I still think the best candidate for the Milwaukee casque is the location where a large birch had been felled and chopped up, near the women's tees (the red balls) of one of the golf holes.  No telling though where exactly that tree once stood, and where its southern foot might have been.

I'm partial to V5 and I2... You'll see an arc of lights I believe you will see an Arc Light (which is a type of light for a Lighthouse) from the location. There is one on Sullivans Island near Charleston SC and it's shape matches the shadow outline on the map on the mask. (outline covers part of Charleston near White Point Gardens...) What else is at White Point Gardens, Charleston, SC? A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight... BP has used other literary elements ... why not Jules Verne.. In Jules Verne's novel From the Earth to the Moon, a giant columbiad is constructed the purpose of striking the Moon. Although the cannon is originally designed to fire a hollow aluminum ball, a bullet-shaped projectile is later designed with the purpose of carrying people. White Point Gardens has a Columbiad.

I know where the jewel is for Verse 5. I believe it is paired with Image 3 (of the armored knight). And yes, I realize Roanoke Island is featured near the window. At some point I'll need to travel to get to North Carolina to find it... anyone want to strike a deal?

Welcome, Trunkflare. Would you care to explain your reasoning in pairing V5 with P3?

The verse actually has everything you need to find the site to dig... Image 3 is a great supporter of the text if you pull out the symbolism.  The two pieces actually don't have much overlap other than symbolism and then the separate facts to identify the place. Only hints which can be used TO PAIR the image and verse: 1) "Wingless bird" is a symbol for glider, which has powerless wings (hence symbolic "wingless").  The knight's arms are locked with braces, to parallel a glider.  The wingless bird also parallels the wingless fairy, ascending on a bubble. 2) "Citadel in the night" has a double meaning, representing a lighted tower in the night. Then the same tower is represented by the armored knight standing tall. 3) "Granite walls and wind swept halls" describes the background of Image 3 (and Image 11)... and is also relevant to the site of the treasures. The rest of the facts just go hand in hand to identify the site and where it is buried.  (And by the way I think Preiss intended the hunters to find two of the jewels at once, both of which in close proximity using Image 3/Verse 5 and Image 11/Verse 11.)

welcome trunkflare what img would you pair v3 to if not img 11 sorry dont mean to take it off topic, just wondering

I'll work on it, but I'm not sure Verse 3 actually refers to Boston. Regarding Image 11 (which shouldn't be in this topic cw0909): - I don't think longitude and latitude correspond to the location of the buried casque. - I don't think #41 above the door is used for longitude/latitude. (Perhaps 1941) - I think #112 is important to identify the site, but doesn't correspond to a longitude/latitude. (Perhaps 112 people) - I think #42 (or #24) could represent a few different things. (It can be both the day of a baptism and a death) I'm not sure #71 is purposeful -- although if it is, #71/#42 could represent a statue artist's birthplace.

Trunkflare wrote:: I'll work on it, but I'm not sure Verse 3 actually refers to Boston. Regarding Image 11 (which shouldn't be in this topic cw0909): - I don't think longitude and latitude correspond to the location of the buried casque. - I don't think #41 above the door is used for longitude/latitude. (Perhaps 1941) - I think #112 is important to identify the site, but doesn't correspond to a longitude/latitude. (Perhaps 112 people) - I think #42 (or #24) could represent a few different things. (It can be both the day of a baptism and a death) I'm not sure #71 is purposeful -- although if it is, #71/#42 could represent a statue artist's birthplace. right i moved this to, so as to stay on topic hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/h ... 822#p98822 sorry for any confusion

Trunkflare wrote:: 1) "Wingless bird" is a symbol for glider, which has powerless wings (hence symbolic "wingless").  The knight's arms are locked with braces, to parallel a glider.  The wingless bird also parallels the wingless fairy, ascending on a bubble. Wingless?  If anything...more winged than any other plane.  Other then that....welcome to the hunt TF and we look forward to sharing all ideas and finding another casque.

Justify to me why "wingless" needs to mean it has no wings.  Why can't it refer to wings that don't move or an aircraft that doesn't create additional force to keep it aloft?

Rather than waisting efforts in  Justifying to you why "wingless" needs to mean it has no wings... Save us some headache and provide some references where the word "wingless" means anything other than lacking wings that might help in the hunt. If you're right it would certainly bring a different perspective to the hunt.

Trunkflare wrote:: Justify to me why "wingless" needs to mean it has no wings.  Why can't it refer to wings that don't move or an aircraft that doesn't create additional force to keep it aloft? I understand your different take on "wingless"...dont get me wrong.  It just seems way tooo much of a stretch to force a theory to fit though.  Using your reasoning...you could argue a table is legless since it doesn't walk.  It just seems too farfetched to me.

Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: wing·less Pronunciation: \ˈwiŋ-ləs\ Function: adjective Date: 1582 : having no wings or very rudimentary wings Dictionary.com: wing⋅less /ˈwɪŋlɪs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [wing-lis] Show IPA Use wingless in a Sentence –adjective 1. having no wings. 2. having only rudimentary wings, as an apteryx. Origin: 1585–95; wing + -less

cant remember was Helicopter discussed hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter

maybe its read lane 2202 Lane Two twenty two

cw0909 wrote:: cant remember was Helicopter discussed hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter Yes, I believe the helicopter & the hot air balloon (both of which are indeed wingless) have been discussed in the past.  I remember some rather promising leads arose from the balloon discussion but quickly fizzled out.  Are there any birds out there that are actually wingless...not just unable to fly?  I guess if there were, it would be near impossible for them to ascend.  Hmm...dumb idea just popped into my head....what about a person named Bird, Byrd, Byrde, etc... who took flight? Damn this bird...

A Kiwi bird gets into a huge slingshot...

Unknown: Yes, I believe the helicopter & the hot air balloon (both of which are indeed wingless) have been discussed in the past.  I remember some rather promising leads arose from the balloon discussion but quickly fizzled out.  Are there any birds out there that are actually wingless...not just unable to fly?  I guess if there were, it would be near impossible for them to ascend.  Hmm...dumb idea just popped into my head....what about a person named Bird, Byrd, Byrde, etc... who took flight? Damn this bird...  :bang) It was my understanding that the wingless bird referred to a kite. I remember that discussion from a while back. And the only real wingless bird there is is an apteryx--which is extinct. (See my post on P. 12 of this thread.) I think the attempt to make a glider "wingless" is really a stretch.

...like this famous bird: may not relate at all but he sure was an interesting fellow.. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Evelyn_Byrd

now that's a wingless bird. perhaps we're looking for a road, hawk way (it would be wingless, since it's not a bird but a street), or a statue of a bird that's in repose so you can't see its wings. Or the Eagle Center.  something that's a play on words. wilhouse

Just keep in mind that whatever it is, it has to be "Born of ancient dreams of flight." That's why I like the helicopter and balloon ideas so much -- they are very old ("ancient") ideas, without wings.

forest_blight wrote:: "Born of ancient dreams of flight." That may be another (very literal) play on words.  Helicopters or balloons aren't born but RE Byrd sure was.  Was it of ancient dreams of flight...?...

not sure this has been mentioned in elementary school, Orville was given to mischief and was once expelled.[11] In 1878 their father, who traveled often as a bishop in the Church of the United Brethren in Christ, brought home a toy "helicopter" for his two younger sons. The device was based on an invention of French aeronautical pioneer Alphonse Penaud. Made of paper, bamboo and cork with a rubber band to twirl its rotor, it was about a foot long. Wilbur and Orville played with it until it broke, then built their own.[12] In later years, they pointed to their experience with the toy as the initial spark of their interest in flying.[13] hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers

something else i forgot to mention Lane Two twenty two You'll see an arc of lights Weight and roots extended Together saved the site could this mean this a, screw-pile lighthouses, some were just metal structures, in the bay  unattended, maybe they just had #s not a name this one was moved hxxp://www.outerbanks.com/RoanokeMarshesLighthouse/ hxxp://www.outerbanks.org/attractions/h ... thouse.asp more pics hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw-pile_lighthouse hxxp://www.lighthousekeepers.com/cgi-bi ... ;p=0 

cw0909 wrote:: not sure this has been mentioned in elementary school, Orville was given to mischief and was once expelled.[11] In 1878 their father, who traveled often as a bishop in the Church of the United Brethren in Christ, brought home a toy "helicopter" for his two younger sons. The device was based on an invention of French aeronautical pioneer Alphonse Penaud. Made of paper, bamboo and cork with a rubber band to twirl its rotor, it was about a foot long. Wilbur and Orville played with it until it broke, then built their own.[12] In later years, they pointed to their experience with the toy as the initial spark of their interest in flying.[13] hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers I really like this idea tying in the Wright brothers invention of flight being "born of ancient dreams..." but.... what happened to the other V tying into the brothers with the mention of "2 friends of Octave."?  It will be hard to convince me of a different V referring to the Wrights...

fox are u talking about this 2 friends of octave, i had forgotten, i guess should move this to v11 Chanute was in contact with the Wright brothers from 1900, when Wilbur Wright wrote to him after reading Progress in Flying Machines. Chanute helped to publicise the Wright brothers' work, and provided consistent encouragement, visiting their camp near Kitty Hawk in 1901, 1902 and 1903. Chanute freely shared his knowledge about aviation with anyone who was interested and expected others to do the same, although he did encourage colleagues to patent their inventions. His open approach led to friction with the Wright brothers, who believed their ideas about aircraft control were unique and refused to share them. Chanute did not believe the Wright flying machine patent, premised on wing-warping , could be enforced and said so publicly. The friendship was still impaired when Chanute died in 1910, although Wilbur Wright delivered the eulogy at Chanute's funeral. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_Chanute more links to octave hxxp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz= ... f&oq=&aqi=

i saw a blimp today and, and thought of wingless bird, and found this prob been mentioned b4 In 1903 the first successful flight occurred here conducted by the Wright brothers. click on birds eye, a #2 at one end, and a # 20 at other hxxp://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/28445/ found this too hxxp://www.airfields-freeman.com/NC/Airfields_NC.htm not really getting us closer though

ack...not the runways 2 & 20 again Maybe I would be a little more of a believer if they were....say.... 2 & 22.  But I digress.  Once again, we seem to be completely shying away from V11 with the SEVERAL references to not only the Wrights but the area as well: 1.  "Pass two friends of octave" = these are the Wrights themselves 2.  "There's a road that leads to Dark forest" = the entrance to the Elizabethan Gardens says “walked away through the dark forest into history”  I personally find this too much to simply be coincidental 3.  "To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable Determination" = Wright Memorial (looking very winglike) says "Achieved by dauntless resolution and unconquerable faith"  Again...too close to be purely coincidental. Why oh why oh why do some still want to try to find other V's that kind of tie into the Wrights when V11 DOES fit?

boogieman,  this verse started out at battery park in new york, and then swoosh, went everywhere. you liked the walloon settlers memorial at one time but you never mentioned this part on it: deForest:......of forest hxxp://www.deforestcommunications.com/d ... orest.html and we have washington street for 222 "Battery Park Underpass Marker Dedicated 1951 Description: Bronze plaque on exterior wall of tunnel entrance at Whitehall and South Streets. -----------white and south street and then would that make this go with image 9? one time forest blight posted a pic of the statue of liberty's hands............they looked mighty close to the hands on image 9

Wow.  Nice memories you have brought back Slappy.  But try if you like, i just cant put image9 in NY. All of the visuals for Battery park are in image12. But I can put both verses, 5 and 10, very nicely in Battery Park, NYC.  Only problem, the damn X.  LOL I like the deForest thing.  I never put that together.  My favorite is Washington Street and two twenty two.  Whitehall or white stone? to the south?  I have to go back and look at my pictures.

boogieman ii was hoping you guys were still out there somewhere i know i'm getting things mixed up because of taking notes on all the threads, but i thought the statue of liberty's hands on that pic from forest blight (with image 9)  was almost perfect and thought i'd post it b4 i lost the thought. if you forget about image 12 ( for a second), the dutch picture for NY makes more sense but  i haven't rechecked yet the lat's and long's, and that stupid dogleg really messes things up i promise this time i will be more organized (i hope). it's still gonna take a couple of weeks just to get my notes straight. (my attempt at making up a joke:  ole treasure hunters never die they just clue away.....................needs work....................... )

Lane Two twenty two I was wondering about Lane, La, LA, and came across Room 222 , an old sitcom (1969-74) set in fictional Walt Whitman High School in LA. Walt met a soldier returned from Fort Moultrie which prompted him to write a poem about Osceola . (Bit of a long shot, but one of the main characters was played by African-American actress Denise Nicholas . She previously studied dance - girl with the frizzy hair...?) You'll see an arc of lights This could refer to an "arc light", or carbon-arc light, of the kind installed in the Sullivan's Island lighthouse. hxxp://www.lighthousefriends.com/light.asp?ID=334 Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight (...I like the Fort Moultrie / Poe balloon explanations for this...) Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south Osceola (buried at Fort Moultrie) is a forest, and also an avenue on Sullivan's Island. I wondered if the only standing member of the forest might be something on Osceola Ave. Apparently the Stella Maris church at the south of the avenue was the only building on the island left standing after the civil war. hxxp://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM46 ... h_Carolina "Stella Maris" means "Star of the Sea". The gem is described as a "star" in the litany. The flower is a daisy, or aster, which means "star". There's a star on the Fort Sumter mask. The lion is a symbol of Christ. There's an "ABBOT" acrostic in the verse, and a cross in the lion's hair: White stone closest At twelve paces Here we have white stone which is close to a St. (Mary is perched on the roof.) I was also wondering about the 12 white teeth on the Fort Sumter mask. It looks like there might be six of these windows on either side of the church.

Where was I? Oh yeah, Stella Maris. I love this place. Hands at 12 and 4. Stella Maris is at No. 1204. Flip Fort Sumter upside down and...hey presto. Well, almost. No...? OK, try this. Turn it sideways and... Note the brown vertical bar to the right of the building, plus...that's a flagpole just south of the church. The Fort Sumter mask may not have the Stars and Stripes, but it's got a star and a stripe. And that's a start.

If you can show me that the small white square thing to the left of the building shown in the aerial shot is a sundial, you may be onto something.....lol

Sundials? You want sundials now?

Fox: It appears to be a gazebo or patio of some sort, from the street view.

guys just think of this verse with image 9.........the dutch Lane 222...........washington street by battery park you'll see an arc of lights-----statue of liberty?  broadway? ferries----------- minute of arc weight and roots extended together saved the site---------- -battery park of granite walls--wind swept halls--citadel in the night--- castle clinton - a wingless bird ascended ( men) --born of ancient dreams of flight ( immigration )------------- castle clinton, immigration center beneath the only standing member of a forest to the south-----walloon settlers memorial ( deforest ) white stone closest at twelve paces, from the west side (you have to be there) get permission to dig out hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/batter ... ments/1647 hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloons hxxp://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/batter ... ghts/12796 hxxp://www.defreest.com/familyhistory.html found it interesting also that peter minuit was on the walloon page (look at his clothes), and the word minuit comes from the word minute, which is 1/60 of a degree or a minute of arc north west corner of battery park bring it on guys............i can handle it  ;D just think about it..........and image 9 does have "73" in the hair

hey slappy, are you trying to put img 9 at battery park,with v5, or v5 at battery pk with img 12, sorry slappy iv read the post 3Xs, and im confused

cw, i was trying this verse with image 9, the dutch image. but believe me i was confusing myself some and getting them mixed up, i kept wanting to add stuff that went with image 12 also. i do like the line "a wingless bird ascended --born of ancient dreams of flight"   to mean immigration, castle clinton, but maybe it means the border? for canada? (lol, i like my own ideas ) so i'm just mixing them up, to see what happens, maybe next, image 9 with verse 10........... trinity church is straight up from battery park (church steeple, hands in image) ummm, i just noticed image 9 has that V thing done with the fingers, so maybe it does go with verse 10 somewhere near a golf couse maybe with the dogleg and golf flags  :) and i think that's a man (in the image) (lol) with a hat...............man-hat-tan  ) okay, will start posting on image 9

If you want to make a journey out of this verse, the most obvious path seems to start at the right end of Poe Ave (great balloon hoax) next to the lighthouse (arc of lights), and lead to the other end by the fort (past Citadel St). (The view at this point reminded me of the lion's eyebrows.) From there, it's a short step to Osceola (the forest), where the Stella Maris or "Star of the Sea" makes an appropriate finish for this lighthouse trail.

View from a little further on, by the flagpole... Lane Two twenty two In Feb 1922 there was a film release called "Edgar Allan Poe" apparently based on his poem Annabel Lee , inspired by a Charleston legend. hxxp://www.imdb.com/title/tt0289936/

White stone closest At twelve paces (Sounds like a duel...maybe Rhett/Calhoun.) This is the flagpole near Stella Maris. Might that path be paved...? Doesn't look like it, but it's hard to tell. And what is that thing just to the right of it...?

I thought I'd break this down here for better clarity: Edit: Notice how this and the Cleveland solves are primarily a reference to a road near the site and then details within that site's perspective.  Chicago seemed a bit different in that there was a greater radius and not every reference was in view.  Priess did more of a journey and triangulation of monuments and then found a spot not to conspicuous.  Expect other solves to vary at least to these two properties, path/triangulate and site/perspective (things distant or near).  I think the Boston and Milwaukee solves will be a lot like the Chicago but at an even greater radius.  Enjoy. Lane Two twenty two I'm really not sure how you figure out that it's suppose to be the Columbia River Gorge on the Oregon-Washington Border, but the Historic Columbia River Highway (built by Two Sam's, entrepreneur Sam Hill and engineer Sam Lancaster to model the scenic highways of Europe) was named Highway No. 2.  Take I-84, which bypasses the historic highways, to exit 22 in Corbett, OR and find the scenic Chanticleer Point. You'll see an arc of lights This is the Bonneville Dam Weight and roots extended Together saved the site The 50-ton boulder on steps, a historic (saved) monument to Sam Hill and Sam Lancaster Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night Encircled by smaller stones and connected by chains gives it a Citadel-like defensiveness, but this could be referring to Sam Hills Stonehenge replica farther to the East or the Crown Point Vista House which can be seen a short distance away A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight Beacon Rock is viewable in the distance next to Bonneville Dam on the Washington side. Beneath the only standing member Of a forest A single tall tree stands near and looks over this site, it is a Fir, I don't think it's a Noble Fir, but the "standing member" = member of standing = noble and might be the clue needed to see through the palm tree's disguise in P6 To the south White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side From the perspective of the dig location, south 12 paces will be the stone that lines up with Mt. Hood Get permission To dig out. What was B.Preiss thinking to have buried this thing so close to a historic monument?!

Reviewing the reason we might suspect Oregon from this verse, "Lane" the first word could refer to Joseph Lane, the first Governor of the Oregon Territory in 1848. Gathering information about FIRSTs might help lead to casques.  Twain was mentioned in verse 7...what was he a FIRST in?  Maybe worth looking into.

erexere wrote:: Reviewing the reason we might suspect Oregon from this verse, "Lane" the first word could refer to Joseph Lane, the first Governor of the Oregon Territory in 1848. I keep thinking of the phrase: "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."

True - though after looking for a horse for 30 years without finding one, maybe it's worth keeping an eye out for a zebra... Get permission To dig out I'm not sure if this line is meant to be taken literally either. Seems unlike BP to ask permission somehow.

I don't want to get in trouble digging. When I had initially planned to wear my sanitation worker uniform and set up safety cones so it would be an ordinary looking thing and then showed up to find that the site was crawling with police and a guy dressed just like I was planning was in hand cuffs, I was overwhelmed with insecurity.  I'm just not badass enough to do it rogue style.  I'm working up the nerve to send a follow up to my first request.  Will send something next week.

bigmattyh wrote:: I keep thinking of the phrase: "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." I grok you, but can you dig? Honestly I believe it might help to consider BPs every word as a possible turn of meaning.  If Lane happens to be a person of great significance to Oregon history then the assertion that Oregon is possibly the state shouldn't spook the zebras...if nothing else it should cause a stamped of pintos.

erexere wrote:: I grok you, but can you dig? erexere, Just wondering...are you a Heinlein fan? AP

I attached Heinlein to my wrist in 1990, but it was cut short when I met a girl, which resulted in a new arrival, whom has just won a full ride scholarship to a nice college. I bet BP was a Heinlein fan.

Congrats on the scholarship for your progeny! There are so many Heinlein-isms in our daily life....

Can anyone remember, somebody had a lane-222/golden gate bridge link idea. I looked through this thread but cant find it, does any body remember what it was or who came up with it? Matt

Ah got it 2 things most famously the goldengate bridge is 222 feet above the water. The other is the goldengate bridge is San Francisco historical site 222 Noticing Lane is on a separate line then 222 I could say it references the lane of the traffic above the 222 feet or it is a sea lane 222 feet tall. Which brings me to an arc of lights. which is the golden gate bridge at night nearby I have found a windswept granite citadel and  without a doubt the last standing member of a forest, and by chance,  to the west of it are several broken pieces of white rock even more remarkable is the distance to the nearest rock - about 12 steps. and also notably I would definitely need permission to dig there. or it being SF I could wait for a foggy night... unfortunately I do not know when the next time I will be able to go dig is... or there is the huge possiblity I am shoehorning clues in where they dont belong, (been there done that!) Matt

Sounds intriguing...any more clues as to where this spot is...? I found another explanation of the fingers pointing to squares on the dress in image 1 that I'm always going on about. On the left side, the finger indicates the 4th square, dividing the strip into 4 and 5. Reading down from the roman numerals this gives 1 2 3 4 5. On the right side, the finger indicates the 3rd square, dividing the strip into 3 and 7. Reading down from the roman numerals this gives 1 2 2 3 7 (lat and long). I wondered if the 12345 could have any significance beyond drawing attention to the pattern, and I've also been wondering today about clues for verse number in the images. Could be a V5 clue...?

Unknown: I wondered if the 12345 could have any significance beyond drawing attention to the pattern, and I've also been wondering today about clues for verse number in the images. Could be a V5 clue...? The paintings were made without knowledge of the numerical order the verses would be printed in.  Preiss gave Palencar polaroid photos of the things he wanted included in the images, without any knowledge of their location. The verses were written later.

Im going old school and thinking since the image is reversed, that when you mirror the image to make all the writing appear forward and the pattern on the dress to match the outline of GGpark, that The (left finger (after mirroring) is pointing after 3 and the right finger is pointing after 4 giving me 34 or 34th ave the road that you leave the iconic image on.

shecrab wrote:: The paintings were made without knowledge of the numerical order the verses would be printed in. The verses were written later. I don't really see how asking JJP to include things suggesting numbers which BP could then assign to verses is any different from asking him to include things suggesting months, or coordinates. But even if they were created with no such references in mind, BP could still have drawn on the images in choosing the order of the verses. This is the kind of thing I was wondering about... Image 6, Verse 9 (Florida) - nine flowers Image 10, Verse 8 (Milwaukee) - circle of eight Highly speculative obviously, just brainstorming really - hadn't occurred to me to look for hints there before.

how does that work for verse 1?  or 2 every picture contains 1 or 2 things... If it were the same thing in each picture that would make sense.  counting random items and claiming a link doesnt

Well gosh I had my hopes up for this verse and San Francisco. So I have been going through the verse line by line to see if it fits my scenario. (Long story short) Lincoln Park in SF used to be a cemetery. and it was south of The Palace of the legion of honor. Palace being a synonym for citadel (per webster's) Near the palace is the last remaining tombstone or monument. (a memorial actually) but it would definitely have fit the bill of last remaining member of a forest (of tombstones) that is now gone) more importantly West of the monument is a jumble of white stones. The nearest being approx 12 paces away (actually its a little closer) (small paces?) The sticker for me was Wingless bird ascended, I tried and tried to come up with some historical balloon launch from this site. I got nothing. and then the more I looked I realized that no,  this verse just doesnt fit lincoln park and Sf...

however I did find a spot that did have a historical balloon flight that was well known this is from an 1863 letter to a newspaper Mercury, August 16, 1863 [OAF] Morris Island, August 3, 1863 Messrs. Editors:— The latest news from this department is the capture of a blockade runner having on board heavy Whitworth guns. The guns captured are now in course of erection on the north end of the Island to bombard the fort          , As I write, the rebels are vainly blazing away, while our men both white and black are steadily pursuing their work right in their very teeth. When they see the flash from Fort Sumter they merely slip into their caves, dug already for the purpose, and after the shell has exploded, out they come and go to work again, till old Sumter gives them another salute. I have been up to the front three times this week, but “I still live,” and all the others who have been up there. The rebels are evidently getting scared. Last Tuesday we could see a balloon hovering over Charleston for over an hour; they were doubtless reconnoitering, but I think it is likely they could see they would be warmly received, should they take a notion to visit us. Turns out The City of Charleston was the hequarters for the development and operations of the Confederate Balloon force. (seriously)

maltedfalcon, the Enterprise was the name of that first balloon ride.  You've focused on pic 1 with verse 5 for SF right?   I've become convinced verse 5 goes with pic 6, so I'm not able to help further your SF approach that way.  Could verse 10 work?  Does the pic have a CA shape hidden anywhere? I totally see the SF in pic 1, it's practically a rebus.  I think it's potentially misleading, but putting us on a stepping stone in the right direction.  In the Japanese Internment theory it works because people of Japanese origin were gathered from SF and taken to Manzanar in next to Sierra Nevada, but the "No-No Boys", people who failed to answer two specific questions pertaining to renunciation of all loyalty to Japan and whether they would be willing to serve in American military, were sent specifically to Tule Lake.  Tule Lake was seen as the "Alcatraz" of Japanese Internment. I think I actually read that somewhere (sorry, no citation).  Hence the prison gate in the mountain.  Tule Lake is in an area next to the National Lava Beds, so there are lots of volcanic formations including large cinder cone (large grey giant?).  Typical volcanic rock colors are reddish orange and grey.  I think verse 10 works with this in a very significant way, because I found a memorial stone that looks similar to pic 1 (neck line below collar) and is located in the area of aisle B on a grid plot that has rows/columns ranging E through K.  Extrapolation is required to see the location as aisle B.

Actually The balloons didn't have names. You are confusing Thadeus Loewes' Balloons Enterprise and Intrepid, (the northern Balloon corp) which were created in New Jersey. The two balloons I am speaking of were created originally as hot air balloons out of donated silk dresses from ladies of the well to do confederate families of Charleston. They ended up being quite colorful as they were a patchwork of silk dresses. Early on they learned hot air wasn't efficient enough to use. so they switched to Gas. The Gas had to be supplied by a city gasworks so the balloons never really left Charleston. They filled one and put it on a boat to move it closer to the enemy, but the boat ran aground and the balloon was destroyed. The second balloon was a constant sight over Charleston until it too was finally destroyed during the seige of Charleston. point being- Wingless bird ascended, born of ancient dreams of flight totally works for the City of Charleston. To me it looks like verse 5 belongs with image 2

erexere wrote:: I totally see the SF in pic 1, it's practically a rebus. Rebus?  How so?  Yes, the pic practically screams SF but I dont see the rebus.

I was thinking Gold, Gate, and Ridge for the watch, and prison bars in midst of mountain ridges for Golden Gate Bridge.  Stretch?

I'm thinking the barred window is actually a door and is a site confirmer. won't know til I get back to SF (next month at the earliest)

Wingless bird doesn't have to mean balloon--it could also mean rocket. OR...it could also mean ELEVATOR. Check this out: hxxp://www.shelterpub.com/_lloyd/bridge_top.html

I just read a P.D.Eastman book to my kid about a bird looking for its mother.  He couldn't fly, so he walked while searching for her. Should we consider wingless bird to be something non-flying and yet bird-like in some way?

Unknown: Should we consider wingless bird to be something non-flying and yet bird-like in some way? Here's my take on this. (Not a disagreement, just a different pov) There aren't any WINGless birds. There are FLIGHTless birds--and the very essence--the raison d'etre if you will--of bird is flight. What is a bird without wings at all? Not really a bird at all, for most of us. Yet: We can accept birds without flight --penguins, dodos, ostriches, kiwis, cassowarys, emus, even most domesticated chickens--are not a problem for us. They're still birds. They still have wings , even if those wings are vestigial.  But a "wingless" bird? We don't have any--not real birds, that is, in the animal kingdom that are not extinct--(the only one that ever existed was the moa and it died out before Europeans settled New Zealand.) So, after all this boring science is considered, what I'm trying to say is simply this: I don't believe we're looking for anything resembling a real bird minus the flight --I believe we are looking at a metaphor for something that has no wings but can still fly, such as a rocket, a balloon, a zeppelin, an airship, a kite , an elevator (because it can ascend!) or even a space capsule. Note the kite. There is a lot of possibility with this object. You could tie in many things, Benjamin Franklin, the Wright Brothers, and very importantly, CHINA.  If you're looking at San Francisco for this verse, then you are also looking at China, since that is the country associated with the image. Additionally, there is a real bird called a kite. The metaphoric range here is rich.

Nice, the lessons in science and history are always welcome.  I suppose a baby bird inside an egg might also apply.  An egg shape that ascends fits the description of a gondola. Just to recap, I'm still strongly in favor of Beacon (beak on rock) or Rooster Rock landmarks as they fit the bird association and as tall mountain like features they have an ascending quality.  Even so, it's still important to explore the wide range of possibilities...and it's fun. So far it seems almost useless to look at maps, since the real search seems to be from an on foot experience.  Internet just fails to really bridge that gap.  Grabbing hold of some minute reference or detail and then taking that leap to stroll around that vicinity until something clicks again has to be the way.  The Cleveland wall and the post in fence were almost centered in each image.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I'm thinking the barred window is actually a door and is a site confirmer. Or a window. (1925 Gough, the white house at Lafayette.) Maybe the 9s in the image refer to the Niners, or San Fransisco 49ers. (Owner Sam Holladay was a 49er.) hxxp://www.parkscan.org/parks?parkId=24

There is this also, which is an overhead view of the parking lot at Alcatraz compared with the odd shape in the left of Image 1: Uploaded with ImageShack.us

That might be exactly like the Terminal Tower, narrowing the search radius down to a mile or two.

Here's an article about the Citadel of Alcatraz... hxxp://www.militarymuseum.org/AlcatrazCitadel.html (Has a lighthouse too.) Don't think the casque is on The Rock tho...

A thought or two on this and image 6.  Using the bird outline in the rock and then mention of wingless bird in verse as a rudimentary pairing choice, we might then consider the following idea. Two twenty might be a reference to electricity, typically referred to as 110 or 220 or three-phase, etc.  I noticed image six is comprised of both a hill and a valley, and it has a flood-like perspective along the left side of the base below the flowers.  The sinusoidal waveform of electricity is refeerred to as having "peaks and valleys". I'm making more sense of this from a Bonneville perspective.  Explorer Benjamin Bonneville is whom the 1937 hydroelectric power center is named after. Weight and roots is like a tooth...a dam is like that.  The icy peak in the corner is toothlike ...I'm not sure where that leads, but a bird doesn't have teeth, it has a beak, which for it is like a tooth.  The outline of the beakless bird looks much like a crow or raven.  If we start at Bonneville Dam and then go left (west) in the direction the horse and rider are looking, we drive only a short while before coming to a spot that is etymologically named after the raven.

Dan Amrich wrote:: Lane Two twenty two You'll see an arc of lights Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side Get permission To dig out. Is this the correct version of the verse with line breaks?  I didnt know Lane was on its own line. After much review of Chicago and Cleveland and other pertaining comments, I find myself addressing verse 5 with a new approach. I'm still strong on "Lane" being a surname of either the first territorial Governor of the Oregon Territory or The first Governor of the Lost Colony...that's Joseph or Ralph.  In terms of new world exploration, the Columbia River and Roanoke are very strong candidates and so image 6 with Ponce and image 3 with the outline of Roanoke make very good candidates.  I confess that verse 11 seems to be the better fit to image 3 with the compelling reference to "White" and his color maps, although verse 5 also uses "White" in reference to a stone.  BP is so clever! Wingless bird ascending, has been much discussed and I now back down from my "beak on a rock" interpretation in favor of a more localized and simple approach: using 'wing' in its verb form 'wingless' may mean 'flightless' and 'ascending' is enough to suggest any form of upward orientation.  Ancient dreams of flight, is cryptic so much that I can only guess its meaning.  Socrates, before his eternal sleep from drinking hemlock, tells Crito to remember repayment of a cock to Asclepius.  This is a deeper but more economical and literary view befitting of BP in my opinion.  If I suggest the references pertain to Rooster Rock, which is an upward pointing land formation on the Columbia River, then it meets several selected criteria: flightlessness is common with roosters especially if caponized, Ancient = Greece's Socrates, dreams = death = hemlock (look for a coniferous tree?), Asc-end = Asc-Lipus... Well, I am sure this will amuse some of you that I can't stop playing with this verse.

I always thought balloon ascension. If verse7 doesn't fit image 1 then this would be my 2nd choice, but because there I cannot fit a Balloon ascension to the end of the picture path (although I can fit one to the beginning of the path in GGpark) I have discarded this as a possibility

erexere wrote:: I confess that verse 11 seems to be the better fit to image 3 with the compelling reference to "White" and his color maps, although verse 5 also uses "White" in reference to a stone.  BP is so clever! There is much more than just "White" linking V11 to the Roanoke/Lost Colony area. 1.  "Pass two friends of octave"   --  more than likely is referring the Wright Brothers who were friends of Octave Chanute 2.  ".... leads to Dark forest"  --  seems to be referring to the sign at the entrance of the Elizabethan Gardens which says "..away through the dark forest.."   as seen here hxxp://www.elizabethangardens.org/tourkey1.html 3.  "To achieve By dauntless and inconquerable Determination Your goal"  --  Displayed on the Wright Bros Monument (possibly our "wing" to the north) is:   "In Commemoration of the conquest of the air by the brothers Wilbur and Orville Wright. Conceived by genius. Achieved by dauntless resolution and unconquerable faith."  hxxp://www.outerbankschamber.com/main/wright-memorial-on-the-outer-banks-nc/ These are just 3 of the more compelling lines, there are several other things that seem to point us to the Roanoke area for a casque.  We have our concrete ling of I to site such as I2 to Charleston & I10 to Milwaukee.  To me, this is one of the most concrete V to site linking..along with our "SELOY" V.

I totally agree with you This image verse leads to Roanoke.

I wasnt so well aware of those other links to Roanoke.  Thanks. I'm marvelling at the coinciding bits that almost pull an alternate verse towards a site, but then other parts of verse kill the debate.

erexere wrote:: ... other parts of verse kill the debate. the only thing that can kill the debate is digging.

On May 18, 1980 the most destructive volcanic event in the history of the United States, Mt. St. Helens sent a large ash cloud 80,000 feet into the sky and deposited volcanic material in 11 states.  The native Americans called it Loowit for a beautiful woman who tended the fire at the base of the Bridge of the Gods.  Mt. Hood and Mt. Adams are the two brothers battled for Loowits affection.  The 50-ton granite boulder in Corbett has a great view of these mountains.  I'm considering an interpretation of this ash plume as a wingless bird. Beneath the only standing member of a forest fits with the fact that every major mountain often has a wilderness or forest named after it as a standard geographical syntax. According to the native American legend, one of the brothers (mt.hood) struck the other and knocked off/flattened his head (mt.adams), thus common lore supports the idea that Mt. Hood is the only standing member of the mountain trio after the 1980 eruption.  It is also the highest elevation and so the source of the wingless bird was beneath. This interpretation is important and supportive to my Corbett theory.  It involves facts and native folklore that are very prominent in the local history.  In 1981, the Nation was still very aware and concerned about the events of Mt. St. Helen's.  I remember the vivid details of that day as much as I do the morning of 9/11.  I like the idea that BP could've used this event as inspiration for a casque site.

except there isnt an image for that location lat/lon, Is there?

maltedfalcon wrote:: except there isnt an image for that location lat/lon, Is there? I know this is a possibility, we arent looking at plain text after all.

I stand corrected.

After some reconsideration i think the "4" is also part of another "3".  I really believe it's saying the 33rd state 45 lat and 122 long.

why, do Illinois and Ohio's state's numbers get referenced in their images?

maltedfalcon wrote:: why, do Illinois and Ohio's state's numbers get referenced in their images? I don't think they do.  I think they both use the states shape instead.  Image 6 fools us in looking like Florida, but it's not as good a match as Illi ois or Ohio.  Do you think they are very good matches or rough around the edges?

But then among other things, you have to overcome the two known exact site confirmers. ie. the statue of Ponce in the FOY park matches the conquistador on the rock and the shape of the small rock matches the inlet just to the east of the FOY park. Its not just the shape of FL in the image. it is many many many small things that add up to FOY park or its immediate area. To even get me to consider this being somewhere else you would have to explain away an awful lot,  and personally I hate the idea of one being in FOY it doesnt make sense to me that he would bury it on private property when there is a public park 100 yards away...

Once someone has any reason to think something is so, it's never easy to explain it away.  At that point, it's easier to produce something tangible than it is to wax dialectic. Either I didn't express it strongly enough or the Tower of FOY was just too threatening, but I know there is an exact match to the boulder because I saw it from many angles as I walked around it.  What I missed was taking a photo of the correct angle, because I literally had a wife and two kids sitting in the hot car all pissed at me while 3 cop cars and and a news van were parked at the scene since some major arrest was in progress...we were on our way home from a wedding and our feet hurt from dancing.  Bet you don't get that kind of drama at FOY. So, on Christmas Eve, I'll be heading up to Washington for a special project, I'll remember to take a detour at the exit lane 22 and I'll take a photo from the exact angle BP surely used 30 years ago.  Then you can look at it and decide how you feel about tiny insignificant tourist sites in tiny little towns.  Gosh, If I have the time I will sink the iron rod in the spot I believe the casque rests and i'll know it's there for sure.  I won't be digging it up however, since I don't have permission without an archaeologist present and the authorities are aware of my activities.

Unknown: To even get me to consider this being somewhere else you would have to explain away an awful lot,  and personally I hate the idea of one being in FOY it doesnt make sense to me that he would bury it on private property when there is a public park 100 yards away... There could be many reasons. First, he may not have realized it was on private property. (Probably this is the simplest and most likely explanation.) Second, it may not have BEEN private at the time, or the boundaries may not have been clearly defined as they are now. Third, it has not been recovered IN FOY, so perhaps it IS in the public area. We don't know, because we have not dug there. Fourth, it's not likely it would be on private property, despite the matches and confirmers--the water tower in Chicago was not at the site, the Bowman was not at the site, the water fairy fountain was not at the site; in Cleveland, the Italian fountain was not at the site, the columns were not --but all these things confirmed the LOCATION in general. The casque in Image image 6 is simply NOT in Oregon. Period. I don't care what matches Erexere has found for the boulder. It doesn't even make sense that it would be Oregon. There are too many confirmers for St. Augustine.

Even in the 80s you had to go through a gate that had the hours posted on it. to get to the wind rose, you had to pay admission and go through a separate inner gate. However we pretty much know he buried one in the Children's Zoo in Houston, So it is not inconcievable. just to me far-fetched. Yes Chicago was not at the Bowman however it was at the Fence/post which is in the image Cleveland was not at the Italian fountain, however it was at the Wall, which is in the image. My point being. something in the painting is viewable from the casque site.  and after several visits to FOY the only things I have spotted in the image are  the statue of ponce and the inlet bordering the east side of the park.

Good point. I do not disagree with you at all. However, since we are not at the FOY location, and we weren't there in 1980, it's really hard to tell what might be at the location that appears in the image. I did like the one explanation for the circle/square in the banner's design, though I think that wasn't at FOY. And there is one other consideration: when you are painting from a polaroid, it might be misinterpretable what you are seeing there--and might cause some image parts to look different from what they really look like.  Just sayin'.... Also, Image 6 is really cryptic. There are many objects that look like they might be in that large rock--including, but not limited to, a mother holding a child--which might be a statue, or a photo, or it might even be a woman/man/unknown figure holding a LAMB, or it might be an aztec-like figure holding an amulet--the interpretations are numerous.

hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/mainmanwal ... otostream/ Maybe this is your marker?

How about the stones embedded in the rust of this anchor? I think they are the same as where the jewel is in image 6. hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/mikecomins/4939721220 If you look at the original image size it explains the stones.

erexere wrote:: So, on Christmas Eve, I'll be heading up to Washington for a special project, I'll remember to take a detour at the exit lane 22 and I'll take a photo from the exact angle BP surely used 30 years ago.  Then you can look at it and decide how you feel about tiny insignificant tourist sites in tiny little towns. Still waiting for that pic.  Have to agree with shecrab once again.  How can this NOT be Foy?  FL's outline sure looks pretty good to me...right down to the gem being where FL's gem, Lake Okeechobee, is. We have a Verse that leads us to Foy....we have a Image that leads us to Foy.... why is everyone so intent on steering away from Foy? This is one of the few times we have both a V and an I leading us (independently) to the same location.

Thanks for the reminder.  I had a fantastic time going over some alternate ideas and I did get a better altitude angle pic of the boulder, but it wasn't as perfect as I had hoped.  I'll be happy to load it for you later tonight.  By no means am I trying to be insistent on anything being anti-foy.  It's just an alternative to consider.  I have to say everything falls in place as I see it and it felt really solid.  The white peak of mount hood was again obscured by clouds *grumble*, but luckily I had my spendy little GPS configured to point directly to Elliott Glacier and it led me to the exact stone that happens to perfectly fit a twelve pace walk to the exact line that I theorized would lay on the path to the casque spot.  It's an intersection that happens amidst lots of obstructions between stones and asphalt only to land on a perfect little plot of grass.  Standing on that spot and looking around it looks absolutely perfect as a spot that would serve the method I think described by BP's verse and Palencar's image.

There's a rock feature in Bandon that fits an old Native American tale and it's called Face Rock.  It's primarily viewed from a specific angle that makes it look like a giant face keeping constant watch of the sky.  I've been delving into another Native American myth that shares the same motif in personification.  I'm fascinated by the similarities here.  If I'm right, then this image and it's FOY-theory counterpart as a red herring is a real doozie. I'm standing on the 3ft tall stone now, so this image is a little different than those shared previously, I walk to the first ring stone in line with Mt. Hood's white peak, which puts me to the west side.  I then walk 12 paces North by compass and it puts me EXACTLY on the line from which the image above was taken.  I just walked normally without any exaggeration to make anything fit.  It just came out perfectly on spot, My daughter and I doing a practice dig as a demonstration to the archaeologist in charge of the site so we can get real permission,

Wow, that's actually a pretty good match to the rock in the image. I'm impressed.

FYI, the magnetic compass declination used for 1980 is different than that of 2012 by almost 4 degrees. I used 20 degrees E as my deviation from True North.  It seemed obvious as the way to go when I realized a True North heading put me on a not so good spot.

shecrab wrote:: So, after all this boring science is considered, what I'm trying to say is simply this: I don't believe we're looking for anything resembling a real bird minus the flight --I believe we are looking at a metaphor for something that has no wings but can still fly, such as a rocket, a balloon, a zeppelin, an airship , a kite , an elevator (because it can ascend!) or even a space capsule. Note the kite. There is a lot of possibility with this object. You could tie in many things, Benjamin Franklin, the Wright Brothers, and very importantly, CHINA.  If you're looking at San Francisco for this verse, then you are also looking at China, since that is the country associated with the image. Additionally, there is a real bird called a kite. The metaphoric range here is rich. I really liked your point and thought applying your idea to Image 8 Verse 1.  You seem inclined to support an approach to the broad range of metaphorically rich ideas.  Let's keep with that creative spirit.

I don't mind metaphor, no--what I mind is LAYER upon LAYER of metaphor that gets further and further away from reality and ignores that this is pretty much an internet-free treasure hunt. All these associations do not much more than muddy the waters beyond the most obvious and clearly-delineated ones. Saying a "wingless bird ascended" is definitely a metaphor. What is it a metaphor for? Whatever RISES without WINGS. Nothing beyond that is necessary to find a confirmer. Nothing beyond that HELPS--it only further obscures the image.

You miss the point.  You launched a bunch of options to consider.  I embraced them, drove my car to a site and looked around.  I saw some mountains and also realized i had a front row seat to the May 1980 eruption of Mt. St. Helens.  Wingless bird could be the ash cloud that ascended.  Do clouds and dreams have an association?  The ash doesnt have real wings yet it ascended.  Alternatively, Beacon rock is viewable in the distance.  Does it have a Beak on it?  It doesnt have real wings and yet it ascends as a peak.  My point is that wasnt internet based.  My point is that it fits your criteria, yet you have some strange resentment for my methods.

(Post moved to Image 2 thread.)

hxxp://www.history.navy.mil/download/w-part%201.pdf [1977] "ancient dream of flight"... "members"... "winged beast... with a goat's head" and such. An interesting read overall.

Lane ... Sir Ralph Lane?

I can't see how BP didn't consider the Ralph possibility.  Now  where might that lead?

erexere wrote:: I can't see how BP didn't consider the Ralph possibility.  Now  where might that lead? double negatives say wha?

autocorrect error.  "I CAN see..." ..oh, and scratch the rest of that sentence..I can't put forth a clear thought these days. arrgh. I was trying to say "I can see BP considering that possibility."  Where's that lead us...back to Roanoke then?

erexere wrote:: autocorrect error.  "I CAN see..." ..oh, and scratch the rest of that sentence..I can't put forth a clear thought these days. arrgh. I was trying to say "I can see BP considering that possibility."  Where's that lead us...back to Roanoke then? Yes... This is also why I posted the PDF just prior referencing the ancient dreams bit... it related to the WB, and would play off of R. Lane too ...but, I can't see Roanoke being anything other than V11. "The land near the window" is a definite confirmer for me. ... Circles.

Think of the thing holistically. It's like Thucydides and Xenophon at the Grecian Garden...interconnections. The book starts with a description of the individual fairy nations, who came to the new land and intermarried; interbred. "Sylph married Duende" etc etc, or however it goes. The final section is about the resulting descendants with their mixed influences. The puzzles are inbetween. Each reflects a particular nation, but also the interconnections between them. Osceola in St Augustine...a Ponce de Leon lookalike on the cover of The Lost Colony ...Lane linking Roanoke to Sullivan's Island...and back to Osceola again. I don't think there's a pattern in these interconnections; they seem too obscure and chaotic. They tend to confirm but also to confuse and derail. Remember the arguments about the 2 and 20 runways that also link the Wright Brothers with this verse...? When trying to figure out why BP included some particular detail or choice of words, perhaps it's worth considering that he might have been taking a sideways glance at a different puzzle.

Unknown: When trying to figure out why BP included some particular detail or choice of words, perhaps it's worth considering that he might have been taking a sideways glance at a different puzzle. Good input. I think you describe it very well, WR, and it comes across surprisingly clear. I've really tried to chalk it up to our net armchair-searching ability. I think I've commented on it before, but it would be a huge of cognitive load to keep all the connections in mind when writing the verses; let alone, the images. It's hard to imagine that someone could design a puzzle with enough intention to do so, and still present clear, solvable riddles. Many past hunts support this. It's also been mentioned how there seems to be overlap in the images (i.e. a highly recognizable pattern or architecture in one city's image can be found in another image). This also irks me. Or perhaps he's just trying to "confirm but also confuse and derail."

Unknown: plume (n.) late 14c., "a feather" (especially a large and conspicuous one), from Old French plume "soft feather, down; feather bed," and directly from Latin pluma "a feather, down; the first beard," from PIE root *pleus- "to pluck; a feather, fleece" (cf. Old English fleos "fleece"). Meaning " a long streamer of smoke, etc. " is first attested 1878 Verse 5. Image 6 Lane Joseph Lane (1801 – 1881), 1st Governor of Oregon Territory Two twenty-two Highway, No.2 and Exit, No.22. Turn at this sign and head up to the Chanticleer Point/Portland Women's Forum site. You'll see an arc of lights Crown Point Vista House sits on an arc promontory which is well lit at night.  Here is what it looks like when viewed from my proposed casque location: Here's a poor quality photo I snapped as I passed the Exit 22 ahead sign coming from the east at night, it looks more like a ufo picture, but it shows that the lights are seen from a good distance along the stretch below which makes this line more of a visual marker. Weight and roots extended This 50-ton boulder honors Sam Hill (and Sam Lancaster) at the Portland Women's Forum which offers the best view of the Crown Point Vista House. Together saved the site Large sign with the word "FORUM"  "place of assembly [ancient Rome]" "gather together" Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night  See the Crown Point Vista House.  Houses have halls.  Citadel as castle i.e. crown. I've selected this historical photo because I love the staircase. A wingless bird ascended Birds may not all have wings, but they all have plumage.  Volcanoes have no wings but may have plumes as they wake from dormancy. Born of ancient dreams of flight A volcano's dream came true on May 18th, 1980. Beneath the only standing member Of a forest A single tree, nearby, stands directly in front of the treasure ground. To the south White stone closest A white capped mountain peak stands over one of the ring stones, none of which are white. I love and also hate the fact that there is an intervening hill, tree line, and cloud barrier between the mountain peak and this stone.  I had to take a compass reading and look at a map to find the precise location of the mountain peak from this spot. At twelve paces From the west side Puts you exactly between 50-ton boulder and the big tree and inside the ring of stones. Get permission To dig out. The sign that says "Portland Women's Forum" does have an image of Mount Hood's white cap.  I still have to weigh the consideration that this could be the indicator used to locate the white stone rather than finding the actual location of the Mountain.  I personally think the compass orienteering idea is way cooler and mildly challenging.  It only takes a compass and map. It isn't as hard as people think.  Using a map to find any location shouldn't be made out as hard as people make it sound. Anyways, here's a point of comparison, the State Park shield emblem and an actual photo of Mount Hood from a popular campsite. Anyways, everyone still seems overly persuaded that image 6 is FOY.  Anyone's solution process (for FOY or even this Corbett site) might seem random based on how it's presented.  All I've seen from careful review of the threads is a mostly random choosing and matching of "selling points" for FOY.  I can't outright disagree with it, but I can offer a not-so-random set of my own "selling points" for the Corbett site.  It's not so random because at each juncture there isn't really a selection of options, there is just THE option provided you actually comprehend some basic interpretive points.  There's a Lane that points to a region.  There's a Highway and exit number narrowing this location.  There's a widely recognized and nationally known historic landmark feature within immediate view, Crown Point Vista house.  There's a 1:1 compatibility with the image for rock-top = rock-top, flag pole = tree trunk, and silhouette of river below = river below.  The whole Spanish explorer thing also works, but I like the 1st Governor of a newly explored region best; both Lane and Ponce have that same distinction.

erexere wrote:: Two twenty-two Highway, No.2 and Exit, No.22. Minor problem here, While popular on the east coast, most western states did not have exit numbers in the 80s They were added in 1995 due to Federal highway guidlines,  and at that point the states that did have numbers had to re-number them due to changes in the way the federal govt required numbers to be applied. These changes were mandated or the states wouldnt get highway funds I can remember in california it was 1995 when exit numbers were first used. I believe Oregon and Washington were the same. For this to fit you would need to show a period map with the exit number  22 indicated.

I'll see about getting that period map even though I'm already most certain the exits along that corridor have been based on the mile marker posts, mile 22 in this case, since before 1980.  I remember the previous exit number specifically because my dad would turn there almost daily.  Im not saying I know which exit numbering system was in use or if any exits had changes, but i do know 100% that exit 17 (and mile 17) was in place as early as 1978, because he would have me wait in the car while he would place bets at the dog track.  Based on that I think its a good assumption the next exit was also based on milepost.

I found the 1982 road map from AAA on eBay.  It should have the exit numbers.

maltedfalcon wrote:: For this to fit you would need to show a period map with the exit number  22 indicated. erexere wrote:: I found the 1982 road map from AAA on eBay.  It should have the exit numbers. ...well played.

I was driving east along the former Historic Highway No. 2 at night.  When I came to the sign saying Exit 22 ahead I snapped a photo of the "arc of lights" while driving.  It's not the best shot and looks a little like a ufo sighting but here it is along with some extras I dug up to indicate that the site has been lit at night since it's construction in 1916.  These are lamp posts along the outer drive loop seen in an old aerial photo.  A new photo shows they continue to be in place.

The exit numbers dont show on the 1980 AAA map.  The exit was in fact marked by milepost 22 along historic highway 2 but both points are less prominent according to supporting documents from 1980.  The I-84 was overlapping and replacing the 80N designation.  Highway No.2 wasnt signed and the only common reference came from older maps and postcards.  In terms of scenic noteriety, several sources would serve the purpose of bringing this No.2 highway to light: the reports of Lewis and Clark and the history of the Oregon Trail might stand as the most significant to the literary or historical minded, or the famous scenes of the Columbia such as the Crown Point Vista House or the Mitchell Tunnel and some of Americas first succesful asphalt roadways might appeal to the tourist.

I've concluded some depth of research into the history of the Historic Columbia River Highway: 1) First scenic highway in the United States. 2) Designated Highway No.2 from c.1930 to 1956, called I-80N after that until 1980 when it changed to I-84. 3) milepost markers have remained unchanged and were in place before 1980. 4) mile marker 22 is the original continuation of the Historic Columbia River Highway prior to being bypassed by I-84.

Does mile marker or even exit # 22 equate to Lane 22 based on the straightforwardness of the found verses. I would be hesitant to associate the an exit and a mile-marker He chose lane for a reason. the most likely reason is he meant Lane. Not road not exit not Mile-marker. A Lane is not an avenue or a street or a road, it is a specific description or a specific name. Where M and B were set in stone,  - look there's M and B set in stone. seek the columns,  look there are columns. Music, Brush theres a music pavillion, Theres an art institute... Socrates, Pindar, Appeles, Nothing deep than there names are on that wall over there.... So my question is does Mile Marker, exit or Highway even equate to lane?

I'm using Lane as a reference to a person.  I see Ponce deLeon with the title of Governor, the first of Peurto Rico.  I discovered there is a Lane who had the title of Governor, the first for the Oregon Territory.  The idea that the first asphalted scenic highway in the United States had the designation as No.2 and has an exit at mile 22 in the former Oregon Territory drew my attention.  Mind you I am drawing a conclusion from the visual of a man holding a flag on top of a rock as a representation of being first.

I have a new simpler and clearer version for all the references. In this verse. It is mainly linear. First line is first governor of the region. (Joseph Lane) Second line is first scenic highway in the USA. (Highway No.2) Third line is the first lit structure you can see at night. (Crown Point Vista House) Fourth line is a memorial to the builders of this road. (Large boulder and plaque on a ziggurat of extending squares.) Lines five six and seven describe the structure lit by the arc of lights. Lines eight and nine describe the long dormancy of a volcano and the waking plume of its eruption. (The ash plume is wingless and all birds have plumage) Lines ten and eleven describe the only large tree in the area of this scenic view point. (A noble fir) This verse opens with a proper name for the man who first governed the Oregon Territory, which only narrows this down to a region occupied by the states of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and part of Montana and Wyoming.  Then we have only to recognize that "Two" is State of Oregon Highway No.2 (1917-1992, in 1993 it became known as Highway 100).  Other options exist but none make as good a fit, such as: Washington's SR220, parts of US Route 2 in Idaho, and sections in Montana and Wyoming are very unlikely.  The big WOW factor here is the extremely succinct fit given that the FIRST thing you see from this site at night is the ONE major historic site in the distance and then much farther in the distance the lights of the Bonneville Dam which are straight.  The arc of lights really says it all.  I've submitted a variety of pictures, but nothing says YES like actually being at this site, and that's a big [YES]. So to summarize the process here, the verse first narrows things to a broad region in the Northwest, then gives a road number and mile marker and then the FIRST historic site that road takes you to quickly fits the description of an arc of lights, a citadel in the night, a single large tree, and is near several volcanoes:  nearest is Mt. Hood (30 miles), then Mt. St. Helens (46 miles), and Mt. Adams (60 miles).  I'm sure that Mt. Hood is the "white stone" and is justified by the lines in verse to do with a volcano.

White stone closest must either be an actual white stone close by or Preiss dissembles to combine something which is White with something which is stone and either or both might qualify as closest.  I prefer there is a stone very close to the casque and it's the object from which we stand on it's west side before taking 12 paces.  I think the something white is the snowy peak of Mt. Hood which is the thing closest, but it isn't close in the same sense as the stone; Mt. Hood is the closest of volcanoes near this site and yet it's 30 miles away and possibly it's not even in line of sight.  In my 4 trips to this site I haven't had a clear enough day to prove this portion of my theory.  I have proven it by means of map and compass. Weight with routes extended seems like something more than what I've assumed.  I still think it applies to the Sam Hill memorial to honor him as a good roads builder but now I wonder if the word "weight" was chosen to mean "importance" and "roots" is a homonym for "routes" and the idea of a road as being an "extension".  Sam Hill's importance in road making is simply what this site represents.  My original view of the massiveness of the boulder as a "weight" and the three square bases each extending further out also fits nicely.  That either view serves to identify with the same object means words would have been carefully chosen and once again I find myself in awe of Preiss' writing with it's brevity and elegance.

erexere wrote:: ...once again I find myself in awe of Preiss' writing with it's brevity and elegance. I think Preiss would find himself in awe of your research with its layering and associations.

I agree

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I think Preiss would find himself in awe of your research with its layering and associations.   ;) me three

:group) Careful when you toss those labels around.  Layers are pre-built into most things as it is.  I'm trying to maintain focus with the use of some well recognized tools.  In this toolbox I'm resorting to etymologies and homonyms and the occasional synonym.  I'm paying attention to punctuation and ambiguities that arise from structural conditions.  Its a struggle to resist automatic thinking or association when lines sometimes rhyme and sometimes don't.  We are often misled by our expectation of what we're looking for, or simply put, preconceived notions trip us up. With respect to any physical location it makes more sense than ever to shed the redundant constraints.  That is saying its clearest when we see just one type of clue needed for orientation when its clearly unneeded to have two or three.  People have posted time and time again how many lines associate with a variety of markers in order to define a long path (me as well...many times).  For the most part I think that's the wrong way to go.  I'm finding there's only so much verse to go around.  It seems most practical for 2/3rds of the verse to be derived from standing on top of the casque and seeing the closest markers coordinated.  I think there's just one very distant marker, followed by one visual or verse based marker for each path adjustment (a turn, a door, a stair, etc.)whenever faced with options.  Preiss did his best to avoid confusions, that's how he made things "easy" although its still not really that easy is it? I'm looking to pure definitions for any of Preiss' word choices.  I think its abundantly evident that he uses words which have common definitions but also have uncommon definitions.  He then frames that word choice in the common way whilst intending its alternative usage.  I'm guilty of making many many associations in the past, but I ask you all to pay even closer attention as I've been learning from my mistakes, gaining wisdom and sharpening the tools that I hope will soon locate a casque.

I drew this rough outline of the visual process in my paint program.  It allows me to show the outline of the boulder and how the tree on the other side is presented above where the casque could be buried so that the lines "beneath the only standing member / of a forest" make perfect sense.

Verse 5. Image 6 Lane Joseph Lane (1801 to 1881), 1st Governor of Oregon Territory Two twenty-two Highway, No.2 and Exit, No.22. Turn at this sign and head up to the Chanticleer Point/Portland Women's Forum site. You'll see an arc of lights Crown Point Vista House sits on an arc promontory which is well lit at night.  Here is what it looks like when viewed from my proposed casque location: Weight and roots extended This 50-ton boulder honors Sam Hill (and Sam Lancaster) at the Portland Women's Forum which offers the best view of the Crown Point Vista House. Together saved the site Large sign with the word "FORUM"  "place of assembly [ancient Rome]" "gather together" Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night  See the Crown Point Vista House.  Houses have halls.  Citadel as castle i.e. crown. I've selected this historical photo because I love the staircase. A wingless bird ascended Birds may not all have wings, but they all have plumage.  Volcanoes have no wings but may have plumes as they wake from dormancy. Born of ancient dreams of flight A volcano's dream came true on May 18th, 1980. Beneath the only standing member Of a forest A single tree, nearby, stands directly in front of the treasure ground. To the south White stone closest A white capped mountain peak stands over one of the ring stones, none of which are white. I love and also hate the fact that there is an intervening hill, tree line, and cloud barrier between the mountain peak and this stone.  I had to take a compass reading and look at a map to find the precise location of the mountain peak from this spot. At twelve paces From the west side Puts you exactly between 50-ton boulder and the big tree and inside the ring of stones. Get permission To dig out.

I submit my theory for Verse 5 Lane Two Twenty Two    [An address or number near by] You'll see an arc of lights        [This is a reference what used to be the Silas PEARman bridge] Weights and roots...                 [Ft Sumter/Ft Moultrie  This is an area clue to link the image] Citadel in the night                   [A light house. Sullivan island ] A wingless bird ascended       [Helicopter] Born of ancient dreams of flight       [museum with vietnam era helicopters at Patriot Pouint] Beneath the only standing member          [a tree, specifically the same kind of tree in the image. I believe its a type of evergreen or pine] The star on the figure in the image has a star that matches the US Airforce emblem on the helicopters. South of Patriots Point is the only spot on that side of Charleston where you can see the arc of lights. I theorize its near patriots point instead of Ft Moutrie because of this. There is a docking area south of there but it has seen much renovation. Although the treasure may be lost to time on this one, I want to prove my theory corret by retrieving old photos or maps of the area. They may have renamed the streets and numbers. It might be worth a look for anyone near Charleston to pass by the docking parking lot. It seems like the type of nondescript area Preiss would choose.

It's funny... I just connected that a wingless bird that cannot fly, the Moa, might have been the origin of the acronym for a no-fly zone, or military operations area (MOA).

I don't know if I ever posted this exact pic, I like that if you look closely at the overhead view of the circle with the boulder you can see that it stands on a square platform, just like the inside of the flag has a square inside the circle.  The dimensions are also spot on in that respect. hxxp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/ ... orbett.png This is found shortly after taking exit 22 on historic highway 2.

The first line: Lane Initially it serves as a clue to Oregon, since a man named Joseph Lane was the first governor of the Oregon Territory.  It helps place focus on the area containing the Columbia River Highway, the first scenic highway in the United States. After unravelling most of the clues, and we find the large granite monument with a placque honoring entrepeneur Sam Hill and engineer Sam Lancaster for together being the builders of "good roads".  We then realize how the first line, Lane, becomes a validator as it's commonly understood that roads and lanes go together.  (Citation- National Register for Historic Places nomination and application for the Columbia River Historic Highway). The same process worked for Chicago's first line: Where M and B are set in stone Mozart and Beethoven written in stone nearby, but the phrase "set in stone" is the language of making an agreement.  The casque was found in Grant Park, and the word "grant" is also used in the language of making an agreement. I'm not outlining this as a process which allows us a conclusive method for solving the puzzles, but I'm seeing this as a way of validating our findings once we've solved the general idea of the puzzle.  I hope to successfully apply this to each of the locations we've narrowed down.

(Post deleted...momentary confusion)

I find it interesting to think its a Mt. Hood usage on my theory here and its a Little Red Riding Hood usage on Milwaukee.  I have a little wiggle room for wonder when I see unlikely connections.  Could be its nonsensical as much as itbis purposeful.  Could also be the two pints of stout I'm drinkin. I had a dream that I had my feet on the ground looking for a casque.  In it I took different options from the points of references in the landscape and tried to find the most logical way to choose a dig spot.  I've been doing that during the day when I take the kids to the park.  Its a fun game to play.  I found a spot locally that I'm going to author as a hunt.  I'm doing the same thing that I think is going on here.  I think people haven't really taken any steps to look for the sensible method for choosing a spot.  I think there's been much talk about sites and much digging, most not admitted to, and I've never seen anyone put forth anything concise.  Instead we have people digging on a guess.  The world is three-dimensional and offers many suitable reference points enough to be concise. I think the best tool to use as we work to solve any location is the idea of the "hat".  Everything that has a top, a peak, a dome, a spire, a bell, a head, a chimney stack, etc. becomes a viable option for locating a concise point.

Reassessing... My solution proposal doesn't take into account the correct definition of a pace. If I take the line "beneath the only standing member of a forest" to mean "the single large tree at the site", then take the lines that follow to mean to mean, go to the stone depicted as white in the illustration, which I believe is verified by using an actual map to take a compass angle and then seen to compare exactly with the image as far as placement in relation to the large boulder, then 12 paces may be best assumed to be in the direction of that tree in order to find the casque "beneath" or close to it.  The tree is just over 12 paces or (75 feet) away from the west side of that stone.  I think I'll chance probing the spot before I get any more excited.

Some minor tweaks and we have this: Line 1: Lane, the name of the first governor of the Oregon Territory, narrows things down a little. Line 2: Highway No. 2, now known as sections of Interstate 84 and the Historic Columbia River Highway, Exit 22 at Corbett.  Take the turn and follow the road up to the high cliff vista that looks over the river gorge and the Crown Point Vista House.  There you'll see a large boulder in a ring of stones.  The significance is written on the interpretive marker about two men who built America's first scenic highway in order to preserve the beauty of the area while incorporating accessibility in transportation.  It was known at the time as the Good Roads Movement.  This site is dedicated to the Portland Women's Forum and was once the home of the Chanticleer Inn until it burned down. Line 3: the arc of lights that marks the hairpin curve around the Crown Point Vista House which is a major focal point of the view from the Portland Women's Forum site. Some of the lines are perfectly clear from reading the interpretive markers and the plaques.  The options available in the panaramic view are easily picked out to match what is in the illustration.  The hard part is figuring out what is meant by "wingless bird ascending" and where is the "white stone" located. The wingless bird is a nod to current events.  On May 18th, 1980, the erruption of Mt. St. Helens sent a huge plume of ash into the sky.  An ascending plume having no wings but being a word that is also used to refer to the feathers of a bird. There is no stone that is white.  The white fencing might be considered, but I think it wasn't there in 1980.  The thematic relevance of the reference to the volcanic erruption of Mt. St. Helens and the idea that the explorer is planting a flag at the top of a rock is sending us a hint to figure a mountain peak into the location effort.  There isn't a good angle of view on a mountain that makes sense.  The closest mountain is Mt. Hood and it's to the southeast.  Using a map it's possible to take an exact compass angle and apply it to the setting depicted in the illustration.  Call that position A.  I use a yellow arrow to show how to line up the large boulder in the center with the tree in the background.  Next, use the compass reading to find the white stone, it lines up in the direction of Mt. Hood, position B.  Take a few steps back, south of the monument and notice that the stone at position B relative to the boulder closely resembles the position of the white glacier in the illustration relative to the main rock formation.  The glacier itself looks like the central boulder btw.  Go to the west side of the stone at position B and begin counting off paces in the direction of the large tree.  You'll stop at a spot just next to the tree.  I think a good probing on that spot should connect with a casque.

Great! when are you going to go probe/ dig?

maltedfalcon wrote:: Great! when are you going to go probe/ dig? I don't think Eric digs.

I dig.  I just find the right spot first. I had a different rationale for this verse just a week ago.  It took a lot of critical review and some luck to suddenly pick a different spot.  I have to make the changes to my proposal for the archaeologist's permit. I mentioned before that when I arrived at this area two summers ago with my tools, my firefighter boots and saftey vest, I witnessed a man in a bright orange safety vest and work truck being cuffed by the police.  A news van was there to cover the capture of someone on the Most Wanted list.  I spoke to the sherrif and continued to take photographs of the area but it was a little unnerving since they were camped out for the whole time.  I even climbed up on some of the rocks looking for better viewing angles.  Just think, I had the right area and its taken me a couple years to puzzle out the details.

erexere wrote:: Just think, I had the right area and its taken me a couple years to puzzle out the details. Really?

fox wrote:: Really? I think so.  Have you seen the map contours of the FOY comparing the same shape?  A map of rough contours vs a real photo of an object that fits several references with relative ease? The marker says "50-ton boulder" = a weight, it sits on three square platforms extending, one larger than the next, the plaque dedicates it to two men for preserving the site of Americas first scenic highway = together saved the site.  I have no doubts.  I don't think you can stand by your remark long ago that you could find any rock in the desert that looks as similar.  There's many more factors to consider beyond your limited ability to recognize shapes.

Well great go Dig! Please prove me wrong! I am rooting for you! but I still think you have too much emphasis on the picture to determine the location of the casque. I don't believe at all thats how the pictures are used. and yes I believe the picture use is consistent throughout the hunt

You need me to point out the example in image 4?  See two columns centered beyond them is a sketch of the wall just as it is presented at the casque site.  You made a point in how well the columns matched.  I only pointed out that they were slightly off but close enough.  I assumed you saw the sameness also in the two for two columns fitting the perspective. In my Oregon theory I'm emphasising the same thing.  See the yellow rectangle that identifies the contour and sketch of a white formation next to the lone tree.  Now consider that arrangement fits the site perspective from the roadway.  That's ALL I've done.  The rest comes from the verse. Just say it like it is.  If you don't see it, then move on.  I don't need the pat on the back.  I don't need to dig.  I have a plan in place and the permit process is just a hurdle to clear.  I'm not playing games, or teasing, or even being dramatic.  I just hope its clear and helpful to onlookers here.  If I was a FOY enthusiast I'd see this theory as an alternative to consider and I might do a risk assessment on whether I need to push deeper into FOY or back off.  Its up to each individuals perspective. Peace be with you, maltedfalcon.

Well I stand corrected. you are correct, in the cleveland image if you line up the columns and the wall so that it shows up like it does in the image. and you had x-ray vision That puts the casque location basically in the center of the image. Can you do that with chicago?

I've been trying to pin down a line in one of the "remaining" verses that pinpoints Montreal, as I think the lamppost irrefutably puts the image there (though, you may disagree). A couple of insights I thought I'd share include: Legeater - George Stephens (of Mount Stephens Club) was the president of the Bank of Montreal Weight and roots extended / Together saved this site - Plaque on Bank of Montreal Reads "The Stone Fortifications of Ville-Marie extended from Dalhousie Square through this site" Lane -The equivalent of NYC's Wall St. is Montreal's Fortification Lane Citadel - less than a block north of mount stephen club on Drummond St. is the Salvation Army Citadel, prominently tapped in stone. This could obviously all just be stupidity, I just though I'd share some interesting connections. I'd sure like to nail down one of those verse/image links, though.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Citadel - less than a block north of mount stephen club on Drummond St. is the Salvation Army Citadel, prominently tapped in stone. That's an excellent connection. I was just looking for some possible "wingless bird" connections...only thing I've come up with so far is "The Rocket". hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Richard I was trying to find where the old Montreal Citadel fort was. Not sure yet (there doesn't seem to be anything left of it) - though I noticed a connection with Fort Stewart. The museum probably has displays about it. Isle Ste-Helene has quite a lot going for it. hxxp://danreport.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08 ... uebec.html hxxp://www.stewart-museum.org/en/ Re: Lane 222, I was looking at this Laurentian Lanes bowling place at 222, can't do anything with it though... hxxp://www.laurentianlanes.com/about_us.php

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I've been trying to pin down a line in one of the "remaining" verses that pinpoints Montreal, as I think the lamppost irrefutably puts the image there (though, you may disagree). A couple of insights I thought I'd share include: Legeater - George Stephens (of Mount Stephens Club) was the president of the Bank of Montreal Weight and roots extended / Together saved this site - Plaque on Bank of Montreal Reads "The Stone Fortifications of Ville-Marie extended from Dalhousie Square through this site" Lane -The equivalent of NYC's Wall St. is Montreal's Fortification Lane Citadel - less than a block north of mount stephen club on Drummond St. is the Salvation Army Citadel, prominently tapped in stone. This could obviously all just be stupidity, I just though I'd share some interesting connections. I'd sure like to nail down one of those verse/image links, though. I don't think this is stupidity at all.  I've been doing the same thing with a similar George Stephen connection to use this verse with the Royal Victoria Hospital.  I was only looking at areas still within the Golden Square Mile, due to the way the clue is drawn, but I never knew about the Plaque on the Bank. I'm a firm believer that Verse 5 matches with Image 9 and Montreal, even if process of elimination plays a significant role in my arriving at that conclusion. hxxp://secretwiki.tomburns.net/index.ph ... tal_Theory Here's where I'm at: Cask 1 - Verse 7 - San Francisco, California Cask 2 - Verse 6 - Charleston, South Carolina Cask 3- Verse 11 - Roanoke Island, North Carolina Cask 4 - Verse 4 - Cleveland, Ohio (SOLVED) Cask 5 - Verse 12 - Chicago, Illinois (SOLVED) Cask 6 - Verse 9 - St. Augustine, Florida Cask 7 - Verse 2 - New Orleans, Louisiana Cask 8 - Verse 1 - Houston, Texas Cask 9 - Verse 5 - Montreal, Quebec Cask 10 - Verse 8 - Milwaukee, Wisconsin Cask 11 - Verse 3 - Boston, Massachusetts Cask 12 - Verse 10 - New York, New York

Best to remain open-minded, but yeah, a sensible set. I was looking at your hospital theory - I like the wingless bird, though I couldn't see the white stone in the gallery? Still looking for 222 connections - here's Montreal's first punk single... hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_222s (Staying with the medical theme, they took their name from a painkiller.)

Windswept halls makes sense to me as simply the windy gorge...basically a channel tbrough its granite walls.

Which is better, a photo of the casque itself or just a mud covered plastic box?  I'm wondering if like one of those unopened star wars action figures does it have more value?

Going back through some pics I took, was this....I never noticed this white stone before....I went down and took a bunch of new (vantage point) pics from a few spots. The stone in this image at the church hasn't been discussed that I've seen. The stone is currently hiding under a shrub and 12 paces measured with a pace as one foot or two steps) lands you in the street, so it can be ruled out if we talk west of that stone. Others I stepped off...keep in mind, I took measurements at both two steps=one pace and one step=one pace. At ~2.5 feet per step that gives you roughly 60' and 30' measurements. I also assumed that the verse read "12 paces from the west side of the white stone". With that... The geodetic boundary marker "Moultrie-2" would have merit if the coastline was extended. Basically 12 paces (one pace per step) or roughly 30 feet from the west side puts you on top of the middle of the barrier rocks. You would have to move one to even dig underneath there. I hate it because I like that one but it's probably out too. My question for this site would be: have the barrier rocks/boulders been moved or replaced since '82 (especially since Hugo in '89)? I plan to further investigate this...I'm going back down and will find someone I can talk to. The two that I'm thinking realistically about are at are the WWII memorial and a road marker (or some other stone) at the lighthouse. The WWII stone stepped off at 30' in some brush (and was outside of what I would think the buried electrical lines would be).  This spot still has potential in my mind. I want two questions answered for this spot: 1. At any point was the Stella Maris church left standing (I.e. After a war/battle, etc)? 2. Where exactly are those electrical lines buried? I talked to a contractor that worked WPG, so maybe I can get a hold of one that worked the electrical at the WWII memorial too... The other is the lighthouse. The closest white road marker is at Flag St and 18 1/2 Station St. Stepping this off puts you toward the lighthouse (and at the right view has a pretty prominent hill that could be the outline of that arc and point in the middle of the Charleston map mask). I think realistically this has merit too. Oh and we drove Poe Ave too...I didn't see any pines. But I did see a road marker that was the corner of Citadel and Poe... Here are links to my Dropbox... Verse 5 related pics: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/el8s4eipdsbmwkp/mgTruEkRSU Stones and ideas (these I would be glad to explain...I'm calling lazy and just posting my DB link vice posting and explaining each...but anywhere you see my feet, I have stepped off either the ~30 or ~60 feet.) (There is a new stone that I did not see or know of before...the Meridian stone. This lies outside of the walls of Fort Moultrie on the Station 12 street side. hxxp://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMEP ... _County_SC ) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gi87kqrkmjr841x/oSWaCFOt6w

erexere wrote:: Which is better, a photo of the casque itself or just a mud covered plastic box?  I'm wondering if like one of those unopened star wars action figures does it have more value? Value is a function of demand, and besides us working on the hunt, I doubt if you put a found casque up on ebay it would generate any interest. I personally would only be interested in a casque I found and dug up. Intrinsically they have little value in any shape/form.

maltedfalcon wrote:: Well great go Dig! Please prove me wrong! I am rooting for you! but I still think you have too much emphasis on the picture to determine the location of the casque. I don't believe at all thats how the pictures are used. and yes I believe the picture use is consistent throughout the hunt I am unable to provide proof for reasons that will remain unspecified, but I will say this, I was wrong on several points. The illustration is in no way used as a "map".  It does tell a story.  I am making the conclusion that it tells the story in reverse.  I don't know that this is consistent with other puzzle locations, but visually it seems to play on different pieces of information and perspectives.  The verse is to be taken linearly in order.  At least I don't see any reason to mix and match lines or break words apart or ever deviate from or play with a word's spelling.  I still maintain that usage and meaning may be the source of many unexpected surprises. Probably the images are consistent as maltedfalcon suspects.  Certain adaptations may be expected when it comes to unique settings and themes. It seems that I have less to say than usual.  I would seem that without a casque-in-hand I have no basis for any of my insights.  All I'd like to do at this point is operate on what I consider a solid set of assumptions: 1: the first line itself combines a clue about the exact spot where the casque is buried as well as serves as a general clue that deals with theme.  The theme in this case LANE = ROADS. 2: the rest of the lines resolve in order, most often in pairs, to distinguish specific points of interest that may work in combination as a means to the exact spot. 3: all words are exact; no wordplay EVER, but when it seems like wordplay, there's a practical reason. Note to the epicurians of headwear: don't worry, this is only a small delay.

Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side Get permission To dig out The word "closest" has always bothered me; seems an odd word, and unnecessary, since the directions are apparently quite clear about which stone it is. "Twelve paces from the west side" is already much more specific. Since we think BP uses inscriptions in stone elsewhere, I wondered if this might be a stone with the word "closest" on it. Eg, at the African/American cemetery, or in the grounds of Stella Maris...? I know we're told there's nothing buried in a graveyard, but I don't know what state that cemetery was in back in 1982 (possibly abandoned), or whether 12 paces could put you safely at the perimiter. hxxp://www.lat34north.com/HistoricMarke ... 20Cemetery (It's at Station 22 1/2. Maybe "Lane 222" could be a pun on "lain" and 22.) Would be interested if any local could check the inscriptions in these places anyway, just in case. Looks like there's not much left there now, but could also maybe take a wander round, eg, Magnolia... hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnolia_C ... h_Carolina )

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side Get permission To dig out The word "closest" has always bothered me; seems an odd word, and unnecessary, since the directions are apparently quite clear about which stone it is. "Twelve paces from the west side" is already much more specific. Since we think BP uses inscriptions in stone elsewhere, I wondered if this might be a stone with the word "closest" on it. Eg, at the African/American cemetery, or in the grounds of Stella Maris...? I know we're told there's nothing buried in a graveyard, but I don't know what state that cemetery was in back in 1982 (possibly abandoned), or whether 12 paces could put you safely at the perimiter. hxxp://www.lat34north.com/HistoricMarke ... 20Cemetery (It's at Station 22 1/2. Maybe "Lane 222" could be a pun on "lain" and 22.) Would be interested if any local could check the inscriptions in these places anyway, just in case. Looks like there's not much left there now, but could also maybe take a wander round, eg, Magnolia... hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnolia_C ... h_Carolina ) Good call on the African American cemetery...I can take a look next time I'm that way. Honestly, (if we are talking V5 with Charleston) "Lane" is the line of that verse that I can't see a solid fit for. So, for "Lane", there could be: -road lanes -signs that literally say lane -person's name -there is Longitude Lane off of East Bay St on the peninsula (Longitude Ln, Charleston, SC 29401 Link: ) Any other ideas? Also, just a note, that the Magnolia cemetery is in a part of town I wouldn't wander around in after dark...or by myself...or without carrying something...catch my drift?

tjgrey wrote:: "Lane" is the line of that verse that I can't see a solid fit for. So, for "Lane", there could be: -road lanes -signs that literally say lane -person's name -there is Longitude Lane off of East Bay St on the peninsula Any other ideas? There's a Sea Breeze Lane on Sullivan's not far from Moultrie. The sign says "Sea Breeze" and "Osceola". https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=charle ... 9,,2,11.81 Doesn't seem especially significant, though I guess there aren't many. The relevant section in the intro talks about the Southern Trades, which is basically a sea breeze. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_wind "...wafted away on the Southern Trades and fluttered down like a windfall of butterflies..." hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/file/fet ... et_OCR.pdf Might be worth wandering up to the end...can't see it on Google maps. But it could just be a clue for the general area.

Great! I will add that to my to-do list! So from what I've gathered, the consensus is that this verse should go with Charleston or Montreal? Has there been a significant "Lane" discovered there?

We can't be sure that this is the right verse, but I don't think there's any general agreement on pairing it with any other specific site. All I remember is that V6 is considered a plausible alternative for Charleston with its pirates and its May 1913, which I guess would leave Image 9 as the main candidate for a "spare" alternative image for this verse.

Ok. Just trying to deduce... Also, take a look at the note under the diagram in this brochure. I had no idea that parts of the fort/batteries were or could be privately owned. "Get permission to dig out"? hxxp://www.nps.gov/fosu/planyourvisit/u ... Jasper.pdf

tjgrey wrote:: Ok. Just trying to deduce... Also, take a look at the note under the diagram in this brochure. I had no idea that parts of the fort/batteries were or could be privately owned. "Get permission to dig out"? hxxp://www.nps.gov/fosu/planyourvisit/u ... Jasper.pdf nice, some info to see/find the private owned batteries i used tjgrey brochure link, and County of Charleston, South Carolina. GIS site and found the marshell battery is privately owned, by 7 individuals, the homes built from west to east, station st 30 to station st 31, between I'on and brownell 97,?,92,?,42,98,2006, some of the props are listed as SUBDIVISION: MARSHALL RESERVATION these 2 homes look like they are built into the mound the cannons sat on hxxp://goo.gl/maps/HslMO hxxp://goo.gl/maps/OfzLZ overhead hxxp://goo.gl/maps/uk1yQ tjgrey brochure link hxxp://www.nps.gov/fosu/planyourvisit/u ... Jasper.pdf using the GIS To make a layer active click on the round button located directly to the left of the layer name check Visible for what layers you want, i chose Visible  for Libraries,  Visible and Active for Parcels,  Visible -2012 Color Photos, used zoom and pan and i = info, side windows slide to large and small click start hxxp://ccgisweb.charlestoncounty.org/we ... efault.htm

Great cw! I see the mound that was built by the Army...but I'm missing the connection to the other end of the island that the Fort resides on...Do you think that this is a potential spot too? Also, I found this: "What are all of the bunkers on Sullivan’s Island? After the Spanish-American War in 1898, the U.S. Army purchased all the land on Sullivan's Island from Fort Moultrie almost to the light house. This became the Fort Moultrie Military Reservation. In addition, more property was purchased up to Breach Inlet. On portions of this land the Army built "concrete bunkers" that are actually artillery emplacements called batteries. In 1947, after World War II, the Army closed its operations on Sullivan's Island. Today, Fort Moultrie and Battery Jasper are part of Fort Sumter National Monument. [b]The remaining batteries and buildings are either private property or owned by the Town of Sullivan's Island [/b]." hxxp://www.nps.gov/fosu/faqs.htm Not much, but a bit more info...

I also circled some areas on this map...so Battery Jasper (blue) is private property. Working clockwise, I have walked around the circled tree (orange) North of Battery Jasper per Rook's request. There were no white stones or markers nearby. Unfortunate...that would be prime digging area. That tree (there are two there-the larger of the two) really resembles the pine branch's needles in Image 2 as well. I was always a fan of the Moultrie-2 geo marker on the SW corner of the attached pic. But stepping that off, (~30 or ~60 feet depending on your definition of a pace) I can't see that working out since both scenarios land you under the rocks or outside of them... The blank are at the corner of the Fort I would like to know more about. Is this actual Fort property? There is a pretty prominent white stone there - the Meridian Stone/Marker. But I see no resemblance or confirmers of that in Image 2 (I think this would be shown too). Moving up, the WWII memorial still could have some merit...west of that stone puts you in the bushes and would be about as risky digging there as anywhere in the area. I just do not know about buried electrical lines that some people talked about here. The church. That african tree (if that's what it is) is very different. Interesting to say the least. There is a (now covered by the bush) gray/white stone/slab there at the corner of Osceola and Station 12 streets. Stepping West of that though, puts you in the street. I suppose the next step is finding out how many batteries are privately owned, by who, and where that covers? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And, FWIW, this is pretty cool (this has no real relevancy to digging...) hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 0TeHBPopIg Canadian Company Recreates Fort Moultrie in 3D hxxp://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheB ... trie-in-3d

Unknown: Great cw! I see the mound that was built by the Army...but I'm missing the connection to the other end of the island that the Fort resides on...Do you think that this is a potential spot too? no not a potential spot, just found a way to check the private owned, and thought i would post it today i was thinking since most of the houses were built in 90s and later at that battery, and i wonder if any of the batteries had been a small park at one time, just trying to cover all the bases for the areas that come up, never know how much history and land to any  potential area has changed do you know the publication date for the brochure?

I went back to Fort Moultrie Friday and spoke with the girl working the desk at the time. She remembered that there was a hunt going on, but didn't remember the book or the author...Anyway, I asked the following: Where are the property lines/boundaries of the Fort? They are basically the tree lines (I'm not going to plot this out...everyone here following this for this area probably already knows) surrounding the fort. (I was interested in the West side by Station 12 street, but that was pretty cut and dry. The vague part was her trying to explain the boundary around Poe/Hennessey Street...THAT I will have to ask again if anyone is interested...) Are parts of the Fort privately owned? She seemed to think/know that it was all owned by the historic/park service. Are or were any part of Fort Moultrie's walls granite? No. One was palmetto logs, and the others were brick and sand (masonry). She was adamant on not being granite. At this point, she wasn't too thrilled about the questioning, but was friendlier when I asked about their volunteer program.

So at this point, here's my opinion on why Verse 5 is NOT Charleston, SC. (And for more than one reason, I had hoped this site worked out...) Lane - I could never find a good fit for this for here, and it's one of the major points of the verse to getting the initial location correct. This just never set right with me. Two twenty two - Same as above. Some of the Station St. signs mentioned "22 To..." but this wasn't how the verse was worded. Still didn't get that "good feeling". You'll see an arc of lights - This I could have seen as a fit, but it didn't click. If we get specific, there is only one lighthouse on the island, and if I'm not mistaken, it only has a single lamp. True, someone could see an arc of light, but it implies that you will see plural...lights. Weight and roots extended Together saved the site - These lines were a great fit to me due to the palmetto logs famously saving the site of Moultrie during battle. Loved this fit for Moultrie. Of granite walls - Same as above for this one until the NPS worker confirmed that no part of Moultrie was granite. This was part of the 'deal breaker' for me for this site/verse combo. Wind swept halls - Fits into the structural lines above...I like that it had night/ominous theme (Poe) to the site. Also fits great when read with the next line. This is a very flexible line. Citadel in the night - Being the first word in the line means that it might or might not be a proper noun. For this site, I assumed that Citadel was proper, and a link to the Citadel Military College on the peninsula. Maybe not. It also doesn't follow with the whole "verse gives you directions once you are in the immediate area". The Citadel would be back across the river once you have followed the other directions on SI. A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight - I was always partial to how these lines could have fit with the "Balloon Hoax" written by Poe. Obviously could refer to many other things. Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south - I always read these three lines as together. There is a patch of trees south of the Fort. White stone closest - Could be many things. Was always on board with the geoditic survey marker but could be many things. At twelve paces From the west side - I read these together. And in context of many of the theoretical "white stones" that are proposed, many are not plausible due to being in a road, under the rock barrier, etc... Get permission To dig out. - I don't see why these lines would not go together. Permission could be private land, or historic property, however, since we are playing with historic property on potentially other sites, this would more strongly suggest private property (to me anyway). That's my $0.02. If anyone can rule my 'eliminations' here out, I'm all ears.

tjgrey wrote:: So at this point, here's my opinion on why Verse 5 is NOT Charleston, SC. (And for more than one reason, I had hoped this site worked out...) That's my $0.02. If anyone can rule my 'eliminations' here out, I'm all ears. You are very right, IMHO. The problem with letting go is that the area and proposed dig locations are ripe with subjectively interpreted clues. I dunno. I am still chewing on it. As a side note and quite related, I've been stumped by some of the same lines as you. So, I've tried applying them to all the locations. Then, I tried looking at commonalities between individual verse lines and the associated (or non-associated) image clues (e.g., these lines describe a place, but no image confirmer; these lines describe a place confirmed in the image; these lines describe only interpret-able jointly with the image; these lines are a road; etc.). A long story, and a bit of trial-error comparison and grouping later (of which I will spare you the details), I'm left with several lines from various verses that absolutely make no sense, that I cannot group because I have no idea what they are. It dawned on me that one of the lines could be describing something in an image - like Roanoke's, to the land near the window - a line or two that could only be interpreted jointly with a single image. Not something that you could find on a map or in a book. I had a look around at all the cities with the above in mind, Verse 5 and the New Orleans image stuck out... You'll see an arc of lights ... Much like the line, to the land near the window , maybe it is a completely unique clue that we cannot make heads or tails of without joining the correct image. In only one image can we see an arc of lights . Dig around a bit if you're interested, or ask me to expand. I've found some very tempting clues next to the Superdome that I'd love to describe. Anyhow, I'm tossing my coins in the pot.

Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side Get permission To dig out. 12 paces from the west side of the white stone below the last of the duelling trees? 12 paces from the west side of the white stone at the south of the tree?

"Only one of the legendary Duelling Oaks remains standing on the duelling grounds today." - McDonogh's grounds, the last of the duelling trees located within a forest. The park is home to the oldest grove of mature live oaks in the world.

No takers?? dualism (ˈdjuːəˌlɪzəm) n 1. the state of being twofold or double 2. the condition of being double; duality. 3. the state of being dual or consisting of two parts; division into two. Lane Two twenty two Lane Two = Two lane = Tulane Two twenty two = two twenty Two = 2 20 2 = 222 xxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx W eight and roots extended T ogether saved the site O f granite walls xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx O f a forest T o the south W hite stone closest xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx Dualism... Duelling trees... 12 paces Why would BP say paces when they are subjective? Because they are used in duels. Why would BP say only standing member of a forest? The other duelling oak fell, in a hurricane, and they reside(d) in the largest collection (forest) of live oaks in the world. Why would BP say we need to get permission to dig out? Because it's not a quick smash-and-grab job... everybody's paces are different. Wouldn't want to go tearing up this area and get shot. Only one people traveled to Louisiana... check which page... 222... The Post Monster General... mail man... male man... msilauD The entire Image 7 has to do with dualism, being split, halves, one thing in contrast to another. The fingers might even be indicating two. Most of the image's clues work to identify two things/places in the area... which is why this image is (has been?) so confusing. Once the dual/duel clicks, the place to go that will allow you to follow the exact directions in the verse becomes clear. And then you see "the last hand-printed sign" that states... This site history tells us was a favorite location of many duels. hxxp://goo.gl/maps/mivSO The entrance to the park? Why, none other than a famous arc of lights dedicated to Edgar A. Luminais. (yes, he was too late, but the arc of lights is famous without him) -- hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=R4XaLB ... is&f=false Pizzati Gate (1910) The Pizzati Gate, with its brilliant archway lights spelling “City Park” at night, stands at the original entrance to City Park at City Park Avenue and Anseman Avenue (originally called the Alexander Street entrance). The archway was built with a donation from steamboat Captain Salvatore Pizzati, a Sicilian who immigrated to New Orleans and made his fortune in the shipping industry in New Orleans. The gate was re-dedicated in 2001 in memory of Edgar Luminais. -- hxxp://www.neworleanscitypark.com/art-and-architecture Still no takers??

Tulane, duelling oaks, arc of lights...I like that a lot.

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Tulane, duelling oaks, arc of lights...I like that a lot. I have plenty more in the bag, but nobody seems interested.

I've given up. I've been trying to solve "The Oracle - Lost In Time" since Christmas but I've just given up on that as well. I'm just a quitter I guess.

i must admit, "Lane Two -> Tulane" is very clever and simple.  I like it. Sometimes it takes a simple insight to impress me, more than all the elaborate photo enhancements.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I have plenty more in the bag, but nobody seems interested. I'll bite. You might be onto something here.

bigmattyh wrote:: I'll bite. You might be onto something here. me too, "Lane Two -> Tulane"

I also like the Tulane reference, and the only standing member of a forest.  However, this does not explain most of the rest of the verse.

Egbert wrote:: I also like the Tulane reference, and the only standing member of a forest.  However, this does not explain most of the rest of the verse. OK... I'll continue. But again reading with duality. A wingless bird ascended = A bird without wings = A wing less bird ascended = A wings without bird Born of ancient dreams of flight = Aviation This is the tip of an obelisk just directionally east of the city park entrance gate (toward the dueling tree). hxxp://goo.gl/maps/JKno3

If this were poker and our solves were our hands, prior to the flop I'm going all in. It may be the first time I take the pot with deuces.

I like where you're going with all of this. Not sure if there's other faces on the other side but the one on the right may look similar to the image's mask looking straight on. Maybe not but I like this idea. Def worth looking into.

I have, but I find it irrelevant. And there isn't. the noses are all way to long to match (as opposed to wide). The clues in the verse stop needing interpretation once they are found. The verse is very direct as to what it is referring to for every single line. Follow the verse, not the images. Otherwise, you'll enter tangent eternity.

.

How do you get from Tulane to the park? If that's a correct interpretation.

Also, going with your duality idea and reversal... wingless bird ascended <--> ascended birdless wing.

Deuce wrote:: How do you get from Tulane to the park? If that's a correct interpretation. I don't know how I would have gotten to Tulane in the first place if I followed the image. If I had, I'd probably have headed southeast till i got to the superdome. Then, I'd keep going to layfayette square, and go straight down to the water. I'd go over the moonwalk to jackson square and amphithere, and then I'd go northwest to louis armstrong park after stopping at the Cathedral. Then, I might just head to the fairgrounds if I was stretching my mind, or maybe the mint. Then, I'd see the park entrance on esplanade. Or I might be 'effin lost because I was trying to follow the image and had been walking around in a circle. I got to Tulane following the verse. We do not have a concrete way of determining whether the verse is describing sporadic points with a few lines describing the exact location (Chicago), or a description of the location only (Cleveland). There has been no evidence that there is a path spelled-out in a line from A to B. This one seems to be much more like Chicago, with the things being described within the image being of similar distance to the digsite. So, once I'd gotten to Tulane using the verse (not the image), I would probably just walk down S. Carrollton until I got to the entrance. Or, I might take a look at an aerial, see a 3 AM clear as day, and try to find a citadel in there somewhere, perhaps one called out by The Spirit of '76 (everywhere but rare... 222 .... duality... the only people that are concentrated in duality). And where is the circle between the X and the II fall? Right at the Duelling Tree. Right in the middle of 12. Though, I would have probably stopped before trying this when i saw the arc of lights. Bottom line, there is no evidence that a verse gives us directions, so asking how I would get "from Tulane to the park, if that is the correct interpretation," doesn't really have an answer other than, well, just walking around and exploring.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: A long story, and a bit of trial-error comparison and grouping later (of which I will spare you the details), I'm left with several lines from various verses that absolutely make no sense, that I cannot group because I have no idea what they are. It dawned on me that one of the lines could be describing something in an image - like Roanoke's, to the land near the window - a line or two that could only be interpreted jointly with a single image. Not something that you could find on a map or in a book. I had a look around at all the cities with the above in mind, Verse 5 and the New Orleans image stuck out... You'll see an arc of lights ... Much like the line, to the land near the window , maybe it is a completely unique clue that we cannot make heads or tails of without joining the correct image. In only one image can we see an arc of lights . I'm onboard with this whether we can prove it or not. I always wondered if there was a sure fire way to pair a verse to an image based on part of the verse content...maybe not, but it seemed like a sound way to ensure that the hunter made the right pairing for the city. And if so, I do like the 'arc of lights' thought! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bigmattyh wrote:: I'll bite. You might be onto something here. From working on Verse 5 with Charleston for awhile, I'm definitely interested. The clincher for me was the arc and "Aviation" marker. You may really be onto something, four! Did you say there is one dualing tree left standing, or the "only standing member" is the sign? Also, did you come across anywhere about the ownership of the park? Public, privately owned? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tjgrey wrote:: NPS worker confirmed that no part of Moultrie was granite. This was part of the 'deal breaker' for me for this site/verse combo. You'll see an arc of lights - This I could have seen as a fit, but it didn't click. If we get specific, there is only one lighthouse on the island, and if I'm not mistaken, it only has a single lamp. True, someone could see an arc of light, but it implies that you will see plural...lights. forest_blight wrote:: Unknown: When first activated on June 15, 1962, the lighthouse featured an amazing twenty-eight million candlepower light, produced by carbon arc lamps costing $900 apiece, that was the second brightest in the western hemisphere. Unknown: The Winter Hall is constructed of two foot thick Georgia granite walls I like the New Orleans angle. But staying with Sullivan's for a minute, we shouldn't forget this... hxxp://www.lighthousefriends.com/light.asp?ID=334 ...and I'm sure granite isn't hard to find. How about the old Fort Moultrie Post Chapel for instance. hxxp://www.postandcourier.com/article/2 ... /130509680 hxxp://www.castlemugdock.com/about/ Don't get too excited; I don't think it was called the Winter Hall then, but it was granite, and possibly a ruin.

Yes, but NO uses direct interpretation of the lines... an actual arc of actual lights... simplest possible solution. Other than the fact that "hall" is a word specifically missing from the NO image, there certainly must be a place that is "windswept" near the duelling tree Maybe we should look for halls of a different "style," you know, the wind-swept kind in literal terms.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: NO uses direct interpretation of the lines...simplest possible solution. Hang on, Lane Two = Tulane isn't that direct... I like those duelling oaks. Just saying I wouldn't rule Sullivan's out yet either.

I'm not saying it is a stretch, I am saying that it is not a direct translation. arc of lights = arc of lights arc of lights does not equal carbon lamps or lighthouse What I am saying is that NO has all of the lines in direct translation in an area spread out no further than the clues in Chicago. Sullivan's Island uses all the verses lines in coordinated interpretation methods that relate to the surrounding areas/things. I'm also not ruling Sullivan's Island out, I am just noting that all of the verses seem to be able to describe so many different places by using complimentary clues to draw a conclusion, rather than direct interpretation like Chicago and Cleveland. I really wonder if the verses were put together to trick us into making links... I mean, "The place where jewels abound" pretty clearly feels like NO; but it does not DIRECTLY relate. Maybe that's the trick, we keep getting pulled into the verses that feel right as a whole. I wouldn't be surprised after recent thought and groupings of clues if V3 and its 18th day 12th hour was NOT Boston. In hindsight, Chicago and Cleveland verses in no way "feel" like those cities. If we didn't have those solved, would we be using these verses as different cities? It's hard to say with our bias, but I think, yes.

Oh...sorry, edited it, bad habit I know. Tulane ain't exactly a "direct translation" either. All I'm mainly doing is addressing tjgrey on the "deal breaker". The NO stuff is good but I don't think the Sullivans deal is irrevocably broke either. (I don't see windswept halls in either place yet.) Certainly not averse to trying new verse/image combos. I have a hunch that Preiss deliberately muddled things up by throwing plausible connections into the wrong verses.

hypostyle hall... aka... (insert P ropernamestyle hall here)?? Hint: Presevation "Hall" goes around in the picture... what prefix means "around" or "encircling"? you buyin' in?

Looks good. This gives a magnified close-up if you click on the photo: hxxp://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/l ... 09c693.JPG Is that the white stone in the background up against the railings?

Looks like we are not alone Geocache Description: You are looking for a simple magnetic key holder located near the tree, but not on the fence. DO NOT climb or search in the tree. hxxp://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC1Q ... lling-oaks

WhiteRabbit wrote:: Oh...sorry, edited it, bad habit I know. Tulane ain't exactly a "direct translation" either. All I'm mainly doing is addressing tjgrey on the "deal breaker". The NO stuff is good but I don't think the Sullivans deal is irrevocably broke either. (I don't see windswept halls in either place yet.) Certainly not averse to trying new verse/image combos. I have a hunch that Preiss deliberately muddled things up by throwing plausible connections into the wrong verses. And I'm not saying SI is out completely. I'm all for entertaining ideas for SI. I'm just not personally going to focus my theories of V5 on SI. I'd love to see it work out and would be happy to check any areas out in person if anyone needed. There are just too many lines that don't click to me for the casque to be there. Again, I'd love to be wrong on this. Just the feeling I get for this area. And the verses actually remind me of what I think what Davey said about AFI's lyrics. They are written so vague but specific so that they can apply to many people (or places in this case). Brilliant, really! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

wk wrote:: Looks like we are not alone Look at it as we'll have someone to blame

Why is nobody else looking for this stuff once I opened the can? Figuring rubbish out is fun! I wish we could all find the same clues and then discuss our thoughts on them without the bias of already having heard somebody else's. I feel like a dick letting these clues trickle out. I don't want to deprive you of the search! Who's tagline was that?

Hirudiniforme wrote:: hypostyle hall... aka... (insert P ropernamestyle hall here)?? Hint: Presevation "Hall" goes around in the picture... what prefix means "around" or "encircling"? you buyin' in? I can dig it. No pun intended. The Peristyle. Originally made as a dance hall. And as open as it is, definitely windswept.

Exactly. What I am saying is that each one of these lines is directly interpreted. Why "windswept halls" {plural}? Do any idea's popp?

map showing 23 geocaches hidden in the city park: hxxp://www.geocaching.com/map/#?ll=29.9 ... 08712&z=15 Duelling Oak hxxp://www.geocaching.com/map/#?ll=29.9 ... 09438&z=19 "White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side" West of tree is towards the stone? Then you reach the water.

That stone is the base of some sort of meter or electrical box. I doubt he would put one there for risk of hitting a wire. Also here is the grass island right next to the oak. I pointed this out in another idea that I had using an aerial view. The Museum is the middle of the clock and Lelong Dr. is the hands. The second hand passes through this island if overlapped and ends on Pigeon Island. Could possibly be "Beneath the only standing member of a forest. To the south..." Meaning south of the oak in the direction of Pigeon island. Otherwise we need to find a reference point north of the oak then read it "Beneath the only standing member of a forest to the south." That would take us to the oak from the north.

You are so close! expand your upper right image, and then align the one to the left again. Then, realize that the arrow is a compass point to N. now that the N is north, take 12 paces from the west side of the tree.

It's a dial combination lock. you have to use the clockface as the dial, and turn in various directions to unlock various clues.

So, everybody has avoided "of granite walls..." Does anyone want to offer what they think it is? This is the only one I am uncertain about, but I have my theory that it is the customs house, and the tops of the columns are the flowers (though, i think just the one on the right). It may be both, but I think the one on the right is a much more exact match, and the fact that the flowers are quite different is what is supposed to draw our attention.

My reading, with the spot where the exact directions begin bolded: Lane Two twenty two Tulane You'll see an arc of lights City Park old entrance Weight and roots extended Live oak forest, heaviest and rooted Together saved the site Friends of City Park founded, saves the park, and it becomes self-sufficient Of granite walls Customs House Wind swept halls Peristyle and Popp Citadel in the night Fort. St. John A wingless bird ascended WWI Memorial Born of ancient dreams of flight Aviation Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south Duelling Oak, to the south of the arrow when oriented correctly White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side MM Memorial, which is 12 paces from the west side of the Oak when oriented correctly Get permission To dig out. Ask. hxxp://goo.gl/maps/nVgHX

Nice. While there's a few iffy aspects, this seems as good a theory as any. On a side note, if the LOJ truly has any subtle clues as has been discussed, 'Midsummer Day' is known as St. John's Day. Maybe a nudge telling us to use Fort St. John as the citadel. That would make your idea a little stronger.

Deuce wrote:: Nice. While there's a few iffy aspects, this seems as good a theory as any. On a side note, if the LOJ truly has any subtle clues as has been discussed, 'Midsummer Day' is known as St. John's Day. Maybe a nudge telling us to use Fort St. John as the citadel. That would make your idea a little stronger. I was thinking the confirmation was C.ABBOT, an astrophysicist, and the moon. The line marks the start of the anagram. Notice the natural hard stop when reading the verse between, "Citadel in the night" and "A wingless bird ascended." Citadel is the Fort, in the night is drawn from the anagram with WTO OTW surrounding it. This means it is part of the duality... he is famous for the night and the day (i.e., Abbot Crater, solar work). I guess all this doesn't speak to your point. So, I guess I agree with you.

Thought about those granite walls a lot. I think that line should actually be read with the wind swept halls line. Popp, the hall that makes "halls" plural, has 12 granite columns. This would allow the image to point to Pop with the mask, McDonough Oak with the clockboy, Story Land with the flowers, Tulane with the fingers, Preservation Hall with the words, WWI Monument with the clock.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south Duelling Oak, to the south of the arrow when oriented correctly Could be a dual play on words (sorry, I had to ). There will only be one standing member after a duel.

That is why -- it is the only standing member, the other one that stood with it "fell." There was two. The two Duelling Oaks stand in a forest of live oaks. One fell and is no longer a live oak.

So, typically when new theories or new interpretations of the commonly recognized clues are proffered, there is no shortage of postings about why the theory will not work. Not that this is a bad thing, there are just many ways in which the theories can be seen as biased interpretations of the individual offering the theory, or too subjective or intangible. So far, nobody has come forward with any objections to my theory or proposed interpretations. I am not sure if this is a sign of the simplicity and straighforwardness of my offerings, or that most of you are bored with the hunt. What's up? I am going to make some effort to find whose permission is needed to dig at the site on Tuesday. I'll let you all know what I find. On a side note, Mardi Gras is coming up, and that might be a real opportunity to have all official eyes focused on the downtown area rather than evenly spread on areas, including the park. Absent any rising doubt regarding the "solution," I am going to make a serious effort to see this spot dug.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: I am not sure if this is a sign of the simplicity and straighforwardness of my offerings, or that most of you are bored with the hunt. What's up? Not bored! I just don't have a reaction. I guess I find it really difficult to associate any verse other than V2 with New Orleans, so it's hard for me to see how this will work.

forest_blight wrote:: Not bored! I just don't have a reaction. I guess I find it really difficult to associate any verse other than V2 with New Orleans, so it's hard for me to see how this will work. That's the beauty of it, and I think the tricky part of the puzzle. So many verses are so easy to "associate" with a particular image. It becomes very hard to recognize that another verse is even a possibility. But when the feel-good verse doesn't have exact interpretations, it's really hard to let go. I try to remember that the picture gets us to the city, the verse gets us to the spot.

Good luck four. I know we shouldn't necessarily use the solved sites as a baseline for the others considering only two have been solved, but do you believe that each image has a confirmer that you see at the dig spot? If so what from this image is near the oak?

After thinking about it I forgot about the arrow which could be it. And when standing at the MM stone the arrow will be oriented the same as the right image arrow.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: So, typically when new theories or new interpretations of the commonly recognized clues are proffered, there is no shortage of postings about why the theory will not work. Not that this is a bad thing, there are just many ways in which the theories can be seen as biased interpretations of the individual offering the theory, or too subjective or intangible. So far, nobody has come forward with any objections to my theory or proposed interpretations. I am not sure if this is a sign of the simplicity and straighforwardness of my offerings, or that most of you are bored with the hunt. What's up? I think you should continue to explore this idea.  However, I am not quite sold on it.  Please - please - do not think that I am criticizing.  I am just hoping that this gets us thinking.  Here is my two (no pun intended) cents: 1.  Lane Two =  Tulane is clever, and I like it.  However, Tulane is not exactly near the Park.  There is also a Tulane Avenue, which is closer to the park, but still not very near it. 2.  You never really explain the Twenty Two part.  I do not believe that it just means "duality" - the number 22 or 222 does not mean "duality" to me.  Perhaps the 22 refers to something else. 3.  I like the WTO and OTW that you found, but I do not see how it helps, and it could just be a coincidence.  SELOY in the St. Augustine verse actually helped, since it gave us additional information that we were in the right place. 4.  Can 2 trees really be considered a forest?  "The only standing member of a forest" does not strike me as 1 tree left out of 2.  BP could have said "The only standing member of a time long ago," or something like that. 5.  I love the "paces" reference if it really is the dueling tree.  Good catch, there. 6.  I can buy "arc of lights" as the City Park entranceway. 7.  I would think that "a wingless bird ascended born of ancient dreams of flight" refers to a hot air balloon or a zeppelin.  It is a bit of a stretch to think that BP is referring to the wings, without the bird.  The wings that you point out, unless I am missing something, do not explain the "born of ancient dreams of flight" reference. 8.  As for the clock hands, your image which shows that the long hand lines up with the dueling oak, is a mirror image, not the actual image.  I know it goes with your duality theory, but to me, that seems like a force fit.  I like that the small hand with the circle on it seems to look like one of the roads, but that road is not near the dueling oak.  The arrow pointing towards the N also looks like an intersection in the park, as you point out, but there could be many intersections which look like that. 9.  Some lines are still not explained, such as the "weight and roots extended together saved the site."  I read that the city anchored the tree limbs to keep it together, so that could be the reference that you are looking for.  Still, a slight stretch. 10.  I did not see the "granite walls" reference explained.  I could buy the "wind swept halls" reference referring to the outdoor bandstand, but "halls" is plural. 11.  Did we ever explain the Citadel reference? Don't be mad!  Just giving you some things to chew on.

Thrasher, would you mind stopping by Storyland? Looking back I wish I would have stopped by. I would appreciate a panorama shot of the area near the dragon slide.

mi cámara es su cámara. mi caza es su caza.

FWIW 360 views story land hxxp://www.neworleanscitypark.com/in-the-park/storyland 360 of old grove hxxp://www.neworleanscitypark.com/in-th ... -city-park 360 peristyle hxxp://www.neworleanscitypark.com/renta ... /peristyle hxxp://www.neworleanscitypark.com/about B4 AFT @ city park hxxp://www.katrinadestruction.com/image ... ewsIndex=1 hxxp://www.katrinadestruction.com/image ... ewsIndex=1 hxxp://www.katrinadestruction.com/image ... te_images/

So, to recap, is this the "MM stone"...? hxxp://goo.gl/maps/nVgHX Is this where you plan to dig...? Not sure what this MM stone is; I can't see anything in the thread identifying it. And is that the duelling oak dead ahead of it...? I'm not following the logic of this yet. Brainstorming...maybe the stick and the moon with the "12" between them could represent the tree and the stone. (Possible tie-in with "preservation" and "saved the site".) Also wondered whether "A wingless bird ascended" might tie in with the Armstrong idea in the pic, or whether "two twenty two" could indicate a time on the clockface. Were the three stones labelled "1", "2", "3" visible at the location added later...?

WhiteRabbit wrote:: So, to recap, is this the "MM stone"...? hxxp://goo.gl/maps/nVgHX Is this where you plan to dig...? Not sure what this MM stone is; I can't see anything in the thread identifying it. Unknown: And is that the duelling oak dead ahead of it...? I'm not following the logic of this yet. Unknown: Brainstorming...maybe the stick and the moon with the "12" between them could represent the tree and the stone. (Possible tie-in with "preservation" and "saved the site".) Unknown: Also wondered whether "A wingless bird ascended" might tie in with the Armstrong idea in the pic, or whether "two twenty two" could indicate a time on the clockface. Unknown: Were the three stones labelled "1", "2", "3" visible at the location added later...? yes, this is the Marcel Montreuil Garden Stone marker, placed in 1952 and surrounded by camellia's until 2003, when they were removed to make the sculpture garden. yes. I've thought maybe they are the tree and the "this site" sign next to it. not sure i understand this... yes. 2007 i think.

four, do i have this right, you are going to dig, west of where this old rock wall was on the left is tree area hxxp://goo.gl/maps/GwmfI this img is south of tree hxxp://goo.gl/maps/RZ0cZ info on img,taken 2009, uploaded 2011 https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/62104146 pdf about some of the markers hxxp://www.neworleanscitypark.com/asset ... cument.pdf

"White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side" The MM stone is EAST of the tree. So WEST side of the stone is towards the tree.

You need to orient the aerial view so that the arrow shaped island of grass is pointing north making the stone west of the oak. *See previous posts for pics*

cw0909 wrote:: four, do i have this right, you are going to dig, west of where this old rock wall was on the left is tree area hxxp://goo.gl/maps/GwmfI this img is south of tree hxxp://goo.gl/maps/RZ0cZ info on img,taken 2009, uploaded 2011 https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/62104146 pdf about some of the markers hxxp://www.neworleanscitypark.com/asset ... cument.pdf Below are the three spots I'd like to prod... Dig order would be red, orange, pink. red - directly between the MM marker and the trunk, 12 paces from each. orange - 12 paces to the true west of the first white stone on the table. pink - 12 paces true south of the trunk, next to the west side of the table. as you know, the table is gone.

That red spot certainly seems like the logical spot. Too bad the white stone is not 12 paces west of the tree, which is where the verse seems to be saying. However, as I learned from Verse 4, "right to left" could mean "left to right." One other note is the line "BENEATH the only standing member of a forest....," which would seem to mean that it is directly next to the tree.  However, this tree is so big, 12 paces from the trunk could still be beneath the branches. What a confusing bunch of lines!

Egbert wrote:: That red spot certainly seems like the logical spot. Too bad the white stone is not 12 paces west of the tree, which is where the verse seems to be saying. However, as I learned from Verse 4, "right to left" could mean "left to right." One other note is the line "BENEATH the only standing member of a forest....," which would seem to mean that it is directly next to the tree.  However, this tree is so big, 12 paces from the trunk could still be beneath the branches. What a confusing bunch of lines! Yeah... confusion abounds. I would argue that the "Beneath..." line doesn't necessary mean it is directly under the tree, rather it is the starting spot of the exact directions (i.e., Go to beneath the tree; then go to the white stone closest; then go 12 paces from the west side of the stone.) You are also right about being "beneath" the tree... it is massive. Alternatively, "to the south" could be added to go beneath the tree, go 12 paces due south to the white stone that is on the true west side of the table. Or, it could mean go to the first (closest) stone you get to on the table when going true south of the trunk. Then go 12 paces true west. Or, if you turn the image, you could perform some of these visa versa.

Unknown: orange - 12 paces to the true west of the first white stone on the table four maybe it is/was end to end of the brick structure , im betting there was prob 12 brick from end to end on 2 sides of that structure, maybe there is a depression in the ground from where it stood, here is a good img, still its hard to count the bricks though hxxp://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/l ... 09c693.JPG

i wonder if this thing sticking out of ground hxxp://goo.gl/maps/ItDMe is the same thing sticking out of ground near the structure hxxp://goo.gl/maps/brq7u

Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight Could this be Storyland stuff...? Like the castle... ...and the rocket; connects with Armstrong/moon/stars.

Allard grave hxxp://neworleanshistorical.org/items/show/110 "In September 2011, the CPIA removed the grave after sonar imaging of the grave site determined the crypt to be empty." hxxp://www.websitesneworleans.com/newor ... /id33.html

An interesting thesis on the myth of the tomb under the oak: hxxp://scholarworks.uno.edu/cgi/viewcon ... context=td

i just thought the structure was an old well house Allard Grave underneath the branches of the Dueling Oak. Image courtesy of Larry Tucei and the Native Trees Society. Photo Gallery (1/4) |  full size |  next hxxp://neworleanshistorical.org/items/s ... ua3r9Io600 Grave of Louis Allard in City Park in New Orleans Louisiana in the 1930s hxxp://louisdl.louislibraries.org/cdm/r ... WP/id/4009

anyone know what this 2 is about,near the tree hxxp://goo.gl/maps/kSDxW some kind of #ing system, a 1 in the foreground, a 3 in the background, 4 in middle and the 2 i showed hxxp://goo.gl/maps/irOsT

cw0909 wrote:: anyone know what this 2 is about,near the tree hxxp://goo.gl/maps/kSDxW some kind of #ing system, a 1 in the foreground, a 3 in the background, 4 in middle and the 2 i showed hxxp://goo.gl/maps/irOsT I haven't been able to figure this one out. But, it seems that they appeared in 2007 as part of Katrina restoration near NOMA. I thought that they may have been part of the Sculpture Garden, but they seem to arrived much later than 2003 (when the Garden opened).

wk wrote:: Allard grave hxxp://neworleanshistorical.org/items/show/110 "In September 2011, the CPIA removed the grave after sonar imaging of the grave site determined the crypt to be empty." hxxp://www.websitesneworleans.com/newor ... /id33.html ... which is why I call it a "table." This is also the second best "white stone" to me, thus the orange dot. Try as I might, I can't find an angle of the table and the stone in the same picture. Can you? The picture would need to be post-1952.

Regarding locating a spot under this massive tree... I don't suppose there's a human skull nailed to one of those branches? That would narrow it down!

LOL! I had look at that before, but because a line of the code seemed to reference the charleston pic! ...main branch seventh limb east side ...from the left eye of the death's-head a bee line...

delete, was suppose to be in V-6

Hirudiniforme wrote:: ... which is why I call it a "table." This is also the second best "white stone" to me, thus the orange dot. Try as I might, I can't find an angle of the table and the stone in the same picture. Can you? The picture would need to be post-1952. I think this is our oak. If you look along the side of the crypt or table as you call it, then in my opinion you have a line towards the railings in the distance.

wk another view hxxp://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/l ... 28b406.JPG

Using Google Earth and selecting historic view 3/31/2006 which shows the angle of the Allard white stone, then it is possible to draw a 24 foot line towards the fence using the ruler. Note that this is slightly less than 90 degrees (clock on image?) and NOT west of the stone.

Deuce wrote:: If the LOJ truly has any subtle clues as has been discussed, 'Midsummer Day' is known as St. John's Day. Maybe a nudge telling us to use Fort St. John as the citadel. That would make your idea a little stronger. I've been thinking about this a lot. I think you are right about the word "midsummer." There is a night before Midsummer Day... it's Midsummer night. They are originally known respectively as St. John's Day and St. John's Night. St. John's night is a very important day on the Bayou St. John! The LOTJ may very well be cueing on of the difficult lines in the verse. It mentions both "midsummer" and "keep," leading us to St. John's and keep (citadel). Additionally, this lends a bit to the night/day, duality confusion.

Some food for thought... This is the side of NOMA that is closest (faces) the Duelling Oak:

More alignment thoughts I magnified this photo and it shows the south end of a bridge. Looking along the side of the stone towards the water and beyond the railings across the water is another small bridge. I had thought of going to this small bridge but Google Streetview does not go inside the Sculpture Garden . Maybe there is a photo showing the view back towards the oak from the small bridge. I also drew a ruler line on Google Earth as before but this time extended further west towards the bridge. I think our required bearing points towards the south end of the bridge which is behind the bush in this view of the small bridge. hxxp://goo.gl/maps/yegwe 12 paces from west SIDE of stone. Also aligns with rear side of entrance building.

So, I had a thought. When you Google "jockey statue" and look at the images, every single one looks like the boy on the image. If the boy most closely (IMHO) resembles the guy on the "cup," then why is he also clearly representing a jockey? Maybe that is where the horse's head in the image comes in... we should look for horses at that cup. Right next to you would be a mural of horses, only one of which is standing. Interesting, the wall has two words on it: "WEST" and "STVART". The "V" in start is directly above the standing-horse's head. The clock splits the "V" in half. Stand directly under the "V" in "STVART, which is also directly beneath the only standing horse. I'm sure by now you've noticed the "V" is embedded in "START". Take 12 paces from the "WEST" side at the starting point and then "STOP"... Get permission to dig out. Notice the checkerboard?

How far is 12 paces? Try this on Google Maps: - Click on Maps Labs at bottom of left panel - Enable Distance Measuring Tool - Save changes - Click on ruler tool icon bottom left corner of map - Units: Select "I'm feeling geeky" - Select Roman double paces on drop down box - Click on map to place first point - Click on second point and move to 6 double paces - Try other units. 12 paces = 29 feet or 350 inches see also pace(unit) and pace(surveying) on Wikipedia but does one pace equal 2 steps?

wait... double paces . jokes on me. if "ten by thirteen" was a clue of trees, might "twenty two" be also? there are 2 rows of 20 trees that line lelong avenue from the old floral clock to the museum (the entrance road that looks like the minute hand). interestingly, it actually pointed to 12, using the museum as the clock center, for more than 20 years until it was dismantled sometime after '82.

I brought up an idea on that clock in a previous post. I'll have to search for it. Different verse though. I think it plays a role. Something about the v in the image from preservation pointing directly at twelve.

Deuce wrote:: I brought up an idea on that clock in a previous post. I'll have to search for it. Different verse though. I think it plays a role. Something about the v in the image from preservation pointing directly at twelve. Unknown: In 1952, Allen Generes, a member of City Park’s Board of Directors, accompanied park director Ellis Laborde to the National Park and Recreation Convention in Montreal. While in Canada, the pair saw and admired the floral clock in nearby Westmount Park. Upon returning to the Crescent City, Generes decided to donate a similar clock to the park. The Mayor of Montreal graciously provided the plans and the park staff built the clock at a cost of $2,000. Located on Lelong Avenue – near the park entrance leading to what’s now the New Orleans Museum of Art – the clock was a popular City Park attraction. The oversized hands proved irresistible for climbing children. This fact, along with time and acts of vandalism, took a toll on the clock’s mechanical parts. The broken clock was dismantled in 1982. The City Park clock wasn’t the only floral clock in the city. In the 1960s, a less elaborately landscaped timepiece operated on the Loyola Avenue neutral ground near the New Orleans Public Library. It, too, fell into disrepair and was subsequently removed. The inspiration for New Orleans’ first floral clock has fared far better than either the City Park or Loyola Avenue neutral ground examples. Built in 1927, using gears from a Model-T Ford, the Westmount clock is believed to have been the first such timepiece in Canada. Except during World War II, the Westmount Park floral clock has been under continuous cultivation. Restored in 2000, it remains a popular visitors’ attraction. I found your post about the clock. search for Allen Generes floral clock has a connection with Montreal hxxp://www.myneworleans.com/New-Orleans ... he-Parrot/ Montreal Westmount Park hxxp://www.westmount.org/page.cfm?Secti ... tem_Sub=32 hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westmount_Park from location of legeater in Golden Square Mile hxxp://goo.gl/maps/XXUb8 via Montreal Museum of Fine Art hxxp://goo.gl/maps/BrYVd To a nice Streetview of floral clock in Montreal Westmount Park hxxp://goo.gl/maps/PGhFT

might ABBOT simply mean its definition: a father? The city park arc of lights is on the Anseman entrance, with the namesake bridge just inside. Anseman is known as "the father of city park." Maybe WEST on the side of NOMA is confirmation of which direction to take the paces - west - just not actually west. After all, when facing that direction from the trunk, you are looking at the checkerboard patterned windows.

Hey four- just in case your dueling theory doesn't pan out in NOLA...Here is a link I came across to a "dueler's alley" in Chuck Town if you are sticking with the dueling theme . I hadn't heard of it before...you? hxxp://charlestongateway.com/features/a ... ers-alley/ Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm considering a proofy (anything which might be taken as proof of being on the right track) which involves finding a plaque that talks about Native Indian dug-out canoes. I think the last line "To dig out," might fit if you just play with the tense.

I'm standing at the oak on the grounds of the NOMA right now and taking pictures.

Last line analysis: To dig out. = To Dugout, a type of canoe crafted from a large tree trunk

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sorry for all the pointless 'test' replies... not sure how to delete them.

Unknown: sorry for all the pointless 'test' replies... not sure how to delete them. I wouldn't worry too much about them figbear. Fully 85%* of the posts on here are pointless in retrospect, as there have been a lot of false starts, random nonsense, and dead ends. Unfortunately, since only two casques have been recovered to date, I can't tell you which 15% is relevant. Toward that end, I would encourage you to read the Image and Verse threads associated with the puzzle that you are working on, just to see what has already been discussed. It might save you some time, and help you to more fully understand the puzzle from people who have been at it for a long time. For example, there no longer seems to be too much debate about the city/verse/image connection. Whether you agree with the consensus is another matter, but it's still a good place to start if you are looking for a general understanding of how we think the puzzles are supposed to work. I would also encourage you to read the "Newcomers" thread (currently on Page 2), if you haven't already. Again, a lot of nonsense, but also some good advice. Good luck, and welcome to the hunt. *a number that I just made up.

I saw a Reddit post yesterday about The Secret and it got me curious which led me to here. Lane Two twenty two You'll see an arc of lights 2x22=44 Interstate 44 is a highway that passes the Gateway Arch A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight I was thinking this was referring to a spacecraft as mentioned in one of the first few pages -- specifically Apollo since he is an ancient Greek God who rode across the sky to give light to the world. President Kennedy was associated with the Apollo missions which leads me to believe Kennedy Forest in Forest Park is a plausable location along with... Of a forest To the south Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night This could be giving a location in the general area of the treasure just how the Art Institute of Chicago was referenced in the solved verse in 1983. The St. Louis Art Museum is where I'm going with this one, but I don't know if the museum has granite walls. Feel free to pick it apart. -UA

Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night Although people have looked at Charleston's Hampton Park, they don't seem to have looked at it much in the context of this verse. So, just a quick observation that the place is a few blocks from Sumter St (Fort Sumter mask), it used to have a zoo with a lion, it's close to the Citadel, and also close to the US Post Office which has granite walls.

Anyone still considering that this matches Image 9 and Montreal? In addition to the Salvation Army Citadel and the Quebec Citadelle that have been talked about, I also finally matched the old location of the Montreal Citadel (destroyed in the early 1800s) with the current city. It's westernmost point was near where Rue Notre Dame meets Rue Berri, and Rue Saint Louis runs to the old fort as well, just 2 blocks west of Notre Dame. Maybe there are plaques nearby mentioning the Citadel. Obviously doesn't match up with the Golden Square Mile, but I always perk up when I see a St. Louis anyway, and this one happened to be by a Citadel.

(1.Lane) Road, street, highway. (2.Two Twenty Two) 220 x 2 = 440 (Maybe route NY440 , NJ440) (3.You'll see an arc of lights) Possibly the Bayonne Bridge its the shape of a Arc and its route NY440 & NJ440 )Or Holland tunnel both is possible. (4.Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Of granite walls) The Palisades Interstate Park Commission was created in 1900 by the states of New Jersey and New York to protect the cliffs of the Palisades, an internationally significant geological formation. Palisades Interstate Park, stretching 12 miles north of the George Washington Bridge, was dedicated in 1909. To further protect the Palisades, a narrow strip of land at the summit going west from the edge of the escarpment and running the length of the park, was purchased by John D. Rockefeller and donated to the Commission in 1933. Existing buildings along the summit were removed to return the tree line to its unbroken natural state, followed in 1948 by construction of the Palisades Interstate Parkway, complete with overlooks and service buildings, hidden from view among the trees. The parkway was completed in 1958, since which time the Palisades have stood pristine, surrounded on both the New Jersey and New York sides by some of the densest development in the world. Hudson Palisades NY/NJ (5.Wind swept halls) George Washington Bridge (6.Citadel in the night) Little Red Lighthouse In George Washington park (under the bridge) (7.A wingless bird ascended, Born of ancient dreams of flight) Destiny was on Commander Frank Erickson 's side in December 1943 as he started the world's first helicopter school at Floyd Bennett Field. Floyd Bennett Field only airfield with alot real Helicopter history. Bennett Park is really close to the Little Red Lighthouse. Bennet park is build on the old Fort Washington (citadel) (8.Beneath the only standing member, Of a forest) ?? ?? (9.To the south, White stone closest, At twelve paces , From the west side) But there is a small white square tile in Bennett Park(The Highest natural point on Manhattan) There is also a Fort Washington memorial in Bennett Park( Maybe this is 8, the white tile is a little to the south) Painting clues 76 - 1776 Battle of Fort Washington Fingers - Maybe the highest point (in Bennet park) P 1 - President 1? George Washington Locations: hxxp://i.imgur.com/eTBZNZp.jpg Most people look for this one in Canada. I believe alot of Greeks traveled to Cleveland and Irish/Scots to Chicago, i'm from the Netherlands so for me it has to be somewhere in New York. (Canada is also not America thats also why i tried NY)Russian must be chicago maybe san fransico idk . Its just a start maybe its all for nothing but you never know. I hope it gets found with a bit of my help.

A wingless bird ascended ...has this come up before...? Couldn't find it. Maurice "Rocket" Richard was a Montreal hockey celebrity. Even had a can of soup named after him. There's a Maurice Richard Arena not a million miles from Île Sainte-Hélène.

Oddly enough, JoshCornell may have just given me an idea with his comments over in the I9 thread today. I've already written up my full I2/V5 Charleston "theory" both here and on my own blog, but I'd kind of thought that whole "Citadel in the night" line was just a throwaway. Almost like Preiss just needed something poetic to follow the fort's physical description in "Of granite walls / wind swept halls". BUT, after JoshCornell made this comment today, I ran a quick Google search for "Fort Moultrie at night". This was the first link that popped up: hxxp://www.sandlappertours.com/fort-moultrie-tours/ and here's the cut+ paste: The Battle of Sullivan’s Island The first Fort Moultrie was constructed and survived a battle before the colonies actually declared their independence from Great Britain. In 1776, South Carolina leaders were anxious to protect Charleston and directed Colonel William Moultrie to build and man a fort on Sullivan’s Island. In those days, treacherous sandbanks forced all ships to enter the harbor from the south on a course heading directly towards Sullivan’s Island. The Americans decided the island was the ideal spot for a fort; the location would allow the fort’s guns to fire before any incoming enemy warships could fire on them. In the spring of 1776, construction began. Walls of palmetto logs were set 16 feet apart and the space between packed with sand. When only two walls were finished, a fleet of nine British warships under the command of Sir Peter Parker appeared offshore and made their way into the harbor. On the morning of June 28, they fired. However, the springy texture of the logs combined with the sand bunker deflected the British cannonballs and the 2nd South Carolina Regiment inside the fort fired back. One eyewitness account claims that one round, coming uncomfortably close, slightly wounded Sir Peter with his “britches…quite torn off, his backside laid bare.” The battle raged all day and into the night, until the British ceased firing and moved off. Civil War Era By the time South Carolina seceded from the United States in 1860, Fort Moultrie had been rebuilt twice. This third fort was a six-sided brick structure and was part of a ring of fortifications around Charleston Harbor, along with Johnson Fort, Castle Pinckney, and the still-unfinished Fort Sumter. In December, 1860, Fort Moultrie was manned by Major Robert Anderson and a garrison of 85 soldiers. Deciding Fort Sumter was a safer position, Major Anderson and his men abandoned Fort Moultrie on December 26, 1860, in the dead of night and quietly crossed the harbor to Fort Sumter. The Confederate Army took over Fort Moultrie, strengthening its fortifications with sandbags many feet thick. This sand later helped the fort to withstand 20 months of bombardment by the Union beginning in April, 1863. SO: Could Preiss have been using the couplet "Wind swept halls / Citadel in the night" as a reference to the 1860 nighttime evacuation by Union troops? If so, then that would mean that every line in V5 acts as an oblique reference to the history of Fort Moultrie or the geography of Sullivan's Island. Something to think about... Credit where credit is due...thanks JoshCornell!

Unknown: by WhiteRabbit » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:51 am Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Of granite walls Wind swept halls Citadel in the night Although people have looked at Charleston's Hampton Park, they don't seem to have looked at it much in the context of this verse. So, just a quick observation that the place is a few blocks from Sumter St (Fort Sumter mask), it used to have a zoo with a lion, it's close to the Citadel, and also close to the US Post Office which has granite walls. Hi WhiteRabbit - Hampton Park is also interesting, but I am not making the connection with the first two lines of the verse above and the site. Can you elaborate on your thinking? Regards, Mac

...erm, no, that was just some random brainstorming...!

The last 2 lines of this verse have me a bit puzzled: "Get permission" "To dig out" Why would we need permission to dig out if he was putting all of these casques in "public parks", as noted in my thread about Burial Sites? This leads me to believe that this could be some type of private property that is considered communal or "somewhat public", like a Church. Regards, Mac

Macfos wrote:: The last 2 lines of this verse have me a bit puzzled: "Get permission" "To dig out" Why would we need permission to dig out if he was putting all of these casques in "public parks", as noted in my thread about Burial Sites? This leads me to believe that this could be some type of private property that is considered communal or "somewhat public", like a Church. Regards, Mac The fact that it's at the end and doesn't really rhyme with anything or fit makes me wonder if Bantam's legal department said "hey you gotta tell people not to just go digging there or they'll get arrested," and so Preiss just tacked it on

drunknerds wrote:: The fact that it's at the end and doesn't really rhyme with anything or fit makes me wonder if Bantam's legal department said "hey you gotta tell people not to just go digging there or they'll get arrested," and so Preiss just tacked it on Could it be that because it's Canada, Re: Legal team. Not sure about laws so get permission to be on the safe side?

So I went poking around Sullivan's Island yesterday, following JamesV's theory. Here are some thoughts I had as I progressed through: 1. The ostrich feather reference for Chief Osceloa is pretty obscure and I am not sure anyone would get that without a ton of research (I maybe wrong though) 2. The history of slavery and the theme of immigration are very strong on Sullivan's along with the war history 3. The arc of lights reference is tough to pin down being that it is plural. Most people would not know Sullivan's Island lighthouse is a special dual lamp 4. The Fort is mostly brick so the granite walls theme was hard for me to pick up on 5. The "missing tree" is almost exactly 12 paces to the wall 6. The leaves on the "missing tree" do not look like any type of cypress I can identify and not like the needles in the picture 7. There is a large white stone in a World War II memorial park right across the street from Stella Maris church and the Fort (looks old but not sure when it was placed) 8. There is a large, odd looking tree there as well. Looks pretty old, but you never know, especially with hurricanes and storms 9. Edgar Allen Poe theme is also very strong on the island, with a library and street named for him. (Also a restaurant and public library) That's it for now. It was fun to spend time at these sites, reading the history and enjoying the area. Hope to make it downtown for another scouting mission for V6 soon. Regards, Mac

Macfos wrote:: There is a large white stone in a World War II memorial park right across the street from Stella Maris church and the Fort ...yeah... ...people, the forum's Search function is your friend. Four21thrasher was posting photos of it in 2012. The area's been dug at least once. (Not enough for my liking. I'd be happy for someone to excavate that thing.)

Correct. And as stated in the previous posts there are 2 large, high voltage boxes behind the stone. Not safe to probe or dig without getting the area marked. Regards, Mac

Macfos wrote:: Not safe to probe or dig Aw c'mon, no-one ever got rich without taking a few risks.

Cooked critter if you hit those lines, but man it is tempting... Regards, Mac

Interesting find... statue of Henry Timrod in Washington Square led me to find he admired William Simms, who has a statue in WPG. Timrod and other fellow writers and poets looked up to Simms and called him Father Abbot. Edgar Allan Poe called him the best writer of the time. Abbot being the first letters of several lines in this verse. Same as the Seloy reference for NOLA. Also he wrote a book called "Slavery in America and Father Abbott" Regards, Mac

Also of interest... he wrote a book called "The Cassique of Kiawah" Regards, Mac

Macfos wrote:: Interesting find... statue of Henry Timrod in Washington Square led me to find he admired William Simms, who has a statue in WPG. Timrod and other fellow writers and poets looked up to Simms and called him Father Abbot. Edgar Allan Poe called him the best writer of the time. Abbot being the first letters of several lines in this verse. Same as the Seloy reference for NOLA. That's rad, good find

Of interest. In "The Gold Bug" by Poe they talk of a treasure that was "paced out from a tree" after "dropping a bug through a gold skull". Seems to match the verse and also the gold mask in P2. Again Poe was on Sullivans in the Army and the island just before entering Sullivans is named Gold Bug Island since 1957. Also found a location on an old map at Fort Moultries called "Mark Tree". Thoughts?? Regards, Mac

Ok, I’ve researched these archives but I’ve not yet seen a correlation of V5 to Image 8 (Houston). Why?

A-Dub wrote:: Ok, I’ve researched these archives but I’ve not yet seen a correlation of V5 to Image 8 (Houston). Why? Verse 1 goes with Houston.

gManTexas wrote:: Verse 1 goes with Houston. But it seems that even in the early days of this thread, which was ALL spitballing, Houston never came up? Is that only because the verse 1 theory was already considered gospel so nobody even considered it? I am working on a theory and solve based on verse 5 for Houston. I may end up being wrong, but I think it’s time to challenge the proverbial sacred cow. Lots of things are lining up logically from the verse in an area of the city that makes sense. There are two things that drew me to Houston for this verse. The first is the wingless bird that ascends. There have been all manner of guesses associated with this, but to me, it seems hard for me to believe it could be anything other than a rocket. Houston is the only city that has strong ties to the space program out of those we believe are represented in The Secret. The second is that while “two twenty two” is not readily correlated to Houston in a general sense, I believe it may be present in illustration 8. At P2 (bottom left corner), there is a paving stone that is broken in two. That broken stone sits within two rows of 11 paving stones. One broken stone in 2 pieces, 22 total stones in those rows. They are the only rows in the illustration that can definitively be counted due to lack of obstruction. Two Twenty Two?

A-Dub wrote:: But it seems that even in the early days of this thread, which was ALL spitballing, Houston never came up? Is that only because the verse 1 theory was already considered gospel so nobody even considered it? I am working on a theory and solve based on verse 5 for Houston. I may end up being wrong, but I think it’s time to challenge the proverbial sacred cow. Lots of things are lining up logically from the verse in an area of the city that makes sense. There are two things that drew me to Houston for this verse. The first is the wingless bird that ascends. There have been all manner of guesses associated with this, but to me, it seems hard for me to believe it could be anything other than a rocket. Houston is the only city that has strong ties to the space program out of those we believe are represented in The Secret. The second is that while “two twenty two” is not readily correlated to Houston in a general sense, I believe it may be present in illustration 8. At P2 (bottom left corner), there is a paving stone that is broken in two. That broken stone sits within two rows of 11 paving stones. One broken stone in 2 pieces, 22 total stones in those rows. They are the only rows in the illustration that can definitively be counted due to lack of obstruction. Two Twenty Two? I say put your solution on here and see what feedback you get. What we also have to consider is the longitude and latitude clues in the images. If we ignore that for a second, what city does Verse 1 now belong to? Does Montreal and Houston switch verses?

gManTexas wrote:: I say put your solution on here and see what feedback you get. What we also have to consider is the longitude and latitude clues in the images. If we ignore that for a second, what city does Verse 1 now belong to? Does Montreal and Houston switch verses? I need to verify a couple of things but will post soon if I still feel I’m onto something. As for Verse 1, I have no clue. Maybe it would could be matched to Montreal. Maybe it will cause us to look elsewhere if disassociated with Houston.

Something interesting... and JamesV did post a picture of this spot in the image 2 thread. Mugdock Castle on Sullivan's Island. Near the Fort, Stella Maris church and the WWII Memorial. Apparently the castle is made of 2 foot thick Georgia granite and has two areas within it that are referred to as "Summer Hall" and "Winter Hall". A lot of history about this spot as well. Worth a look: hxxp://www.castlemugdock.com/history/ Regards, Mac

Macfos wrote:: Something interesting... and JamesV did post a picture of this spot in the image 2 thread. Mugdock Castle on Sullivan's Island. Near the Fort, Stella Maris church and the WWII Memorial. Apparently the castle is made of 2 foot thick Georgia granite and has two areas within it that are referred to as "Summer Hall" and "Winter Hall". A lot of history about this spot as well. Worth a look: hxxp://www.castlemugdock.com/history/ Regards, Mac I posted a proposed solution for Verse 5 and Image 9 in the Image 9 thread. I don't think Verse 5 goes with anything else.

Just a thought here. The tree in front of Fourt Moultrie would have made burying a cask difficult in that area. Judging by its location, you may have run into roots 24 feet from the west side of the obelisk. I still favor the front of Fort Moultrie and the Osceola stone as the marker. One other possibility could be that the ‘west side’ refers to the west side of the fort in front and you were supposed to take 12 steps towards the white stone.

davinci4 wrote:: = One other possibility could be that the ‘west side’ refers to the west side of the fort in front and you were supposed to take 12 steps towards the white stone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this theory was latched onto early in the image thread. Someone did some digging around there, and I believe calculated that 12 steps towards the right stone would still be in a National park. I might be mashing together different things though. Going to try to find the posts.

drunknerds wrote:: Correct me if I'm wrong, but this theory was latched onto early in the image thread. Someone did some digging around there, and I believe calculated that 12 steps towards the right stone would still be in a National park. I might be mashing together different things though. Going to try to find the posts. Yes. I believe that is correct. The “get permission to dig it out” would have been very applicable in 1982 at this particular site.

Here's the rough sketch that I sent to NPS along with my write-up, back in May 2017: I'm still reading V5 literally, twelve "paces" from the west side of the "white stone", which I believe would be the white granite obelisk erected as a monument to the crew of the USS Patapsco ironclad. From here, even pacing off steps in a straight line, it'd still be challenging to pinpoint the exact spot without using a metal detector or a ground probe. Both of these were denied, though, along with an offer of GPR assistance...at least for the time being. Disclaimer: The casque ain't found if it's still in the ground...

Hmmm, the Forum is definitely a couple blocks off of Sherbrooke on saint Catherine. To me, the PX7 is some kind of symbol we might find near the dig site. It isn’t obviously a 7 in my eyes... but of course I don’t have any better ideas. One location I keep thinking of is the chateau apartments, on Sherbrooke near the art museum. It would fit the “citadel in the night” (but the walls are limestone not granite). It does have the stair step pattern inside the courtyard...

Nate I see the Citadel as Olympic Park as a whole. The arc of of lights could be a few different things but I'm inclined to this being the lighting around Olympic Stadium. The Wingless bird is the Velodrome.

Anyone in the Manhattan area that could consider this option? Weight and roots extended Together saved the site Of granite wall Wind swept halls an abandoned building, that lasted longer than expected (extended life of the structure) because of the weight of the building and overgrowth of vines holding it together like when trees help prevent shore erosion. One where the interior is exposed and the only sweeping that is done is wind blowing around debris inside. Perhaps something like the Roosevelt Small Pox hospital, on Roosevelt Island (formally Blackwell's Island)? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Roose ... 73.9509934 https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... g..i&w=900 There seems to be a White structure (stone) on the Southern tip of the island by the hospital. It had been overgrown and the granite walls had been reinforced when was deemed a historical site. The Roosevelt bridge that connects the island, is station code 222, not sure if that could be considered a "Lane" Is it like a Citadel and does it have anything to do with wingless birds? I realize this verse was first thought to be considered New York but more recent consensus pairs New York to verse 10. Just throwing it out there, if anyone in the area has any thoughts on the matter...

I also read that after the initial renovation in the late 70’s the small pox hospital was illuminated at night to allow people to explore the paths at night. Maybe the citadel at night? Or maybe a reference to the outbreak of disease, where a hospital was built, fortified safely away from the public to prevent further spread of infection? The city park at the southern top was deemed so in the 90s was it landscaped before? Could it have been a casque burial site option?

Anyone in the Manhattan area know if there is any monuments or buildings to Thomas Edison known for using his “arc of light” when he first used his electric light bulb to light up lower Manhattan?

Disregard my last few posts pairing verse 5 to image 12.

jayheedan1 wrote:: Disregard my last few posts pairing verse 5 to image 12. Don't worry, already had.

MrBackstop wrote:: Lane Two twenty two The beginning of this verse has baffled me. There has to be some creative importance that made BP start with this clue. I believed I've figured it out. Growing up in the 60s, 70s and 80s, we were always told that the United States was going to convert back to the metric system to be like the rest of the word when it came to weights and measures. As a Jr High student (7th grade) I thought this was crazy. Why would we go back to a system we left 200 years ago, I thought.....but I digress. Point is, we studied the metric system for years and never used it.....miles, meters, gallons, liters, whatever. It got me to thinking that perhaps BP remembered those years of the metric system being shoved down our throats, and decided to be creative with a clue to the roads in Montreal. I kept running into articles referencing the Kings Hwy and how important this path in Montreal. Today this road is Rue Sherbrooke or Quebec Route 138. Where I believe the creative part comes in is this, ....if 222 is kilometers, how many miles are in 222 kilometers? You got it,....138. Coincidence? Perhaps but incredibly coincidental when you consider that Quebec Route 138 (Kings Hwy) runs through Montreal. Route 138 goes between the Olympic Village and Olympic Park, continues down thru the city in front of the Mount and is a block away from the George Stephen House and 2 blocks from the Montreal Forum. Keep in mind in the Image, the PX7 box is the 1st block on the right and the Leg Eater is the 2nd block. Let's chew on this like a Leg Eater. are you kidding me? you realize i already fully explained this right? lol viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7287&hilit=+sherbrooke

and you got the logic wrong, the highway goes from windsor on to halifax, and was named the two, later changed to the twenty and called the two and the twenty (as pointed out by fenix) which gives you the starting location at the corner of peel and sherbrooke, and you take that to the isle at the racetrack via the bike path along the harbourfront. i mean...do you guys not read what i do here...i released the entire damn map succinctly for you lol. also i go back this week to finish checking the spot.

JoshCornell wrote:: and you got the logic wrong, the highway goes from windsor on to halifax, and was named the two, later changed to the twenty and called the two and the twenty (as pointed out by fenix) which gives you the starting location at the corner of peel and sherbrooke, and you take that to the isle at the racetrack via the bike path along the harbourfront. i mean...do you guys not read what i do here...i released the entire damn map succinctly for you lol. also i go back this week to finish checking the spot. Josh my man, it's so good to have you back. I mean, yes, we do read what you do here.....many of us just don't agree with your interpretation of the Verse or Image. I know that's hard for someone of your expertise to believe but that's how it is. Sherbrooke ties together the pieces of the image with the Verse and shows a strong correlation to the events surrounding the '76 Olympic Games. And Josh I understand that you don't agree with me on this, that's okay. But let me ask you this, " What balloon are you talking about that you interpret as the "wingless bird"?"

MrBackstop wrote:: And Josh I understand that you don't agree with me on this, that's okay. But let me ask you this, " What balloon are you talking about that you interpret as the "wingless bird"?" The balloon Josh was talking about was the Canada. On September 8, 1856, French aeronaut, Eugène Godard, operating a balloon called Canada (the first aircraft ever constructed in Canada), piloted the country's first successful passenger flight, carrying three passengers from Montreal to Pointe-Olivier, Quebec. Josh thought it was a hot-air balloon because Eugène Godard had a history with hot air balloons, I believe the original balloon he brought from Europe was damaged so he had to make a new one and the new one was actually a gas balloon filled with lamp gas (the stuff they used for lighting ), So this is the first aircraft/balloon every built in Canada. That being said, there are several really good possibilities for Wingless bird Ascended in the area, Which one is correct? no idea, - the one that leads to a casque. Til we have that they are all possibilities, not sure things.

this is very obviously correct, as the path ive very clearly outlined for you guys takes you right past the spot where it lifted off...which you have to travel to to get around to the islands.

how could i be wrong when im so obviously right...indisputably so. the top x clearly defines the block bw peel and mctavish (though i do agree with the secondary reading about the olympics)...Peel is written on the goddamn wall... (if you dispute this youre an idiot). period. it clearly leads you S down peel, as pointed to by the place du canada...which is represented in teh painting by the garibaldi candelbra. you then travel along the waterfront and go over the lachine and along that finger of land past habitat 67. the connecting factor bw taking pie ix to olympic park and the islands is jean drapeau (who also oversaw the expos coming to mtl). the puzzle takes you all over mtl but the treasure hunt takes you right to the islands. you go from the two and the twenty to the 222 (raceway)...and then over to the island and s to the treasures location. anyways im back there in a few days and will dig the best viable location...might take more extensive digging to reveal casque cause i cannot tell where the sign was located, as its gone.

The triangle from pie IX Olympic Stadium area to Peel to the islands is a huge area to cover in a walking tour. I think this has been mentioned before, but my first concern with this approach (putting aside individual clue interpretation) is that it is simply too far. Chicago was much shorter, correct?

bignate wrote:: The triangle from pie IX Olympic Stadium area to Peel to the islands is a huge area to cover in a walking tour. I think this has been mentioned before, but my first concern with this approach (putting aside individual clue interpretation) is that it is simply too far. Chicago was much shorter, correct? I believe so... if you start at the Water Tower and head south on Michigan Ave to Grant Park /Congress Pkwy /the Bowman, it's about 1.7 miles...add a bit more, to go through the park to the dig site. If you start at the Bowman statue /Congress Pkwy (which is what they did), then it's a considerably shorter walk (obviously).

Thanks EZ. So, Olympic stadium to Peel or mount stephen club to the start of île st Helene is about 8 miles. For me, the leg eater is a must on the walk, which makes me doubtful that the Olympic stadium or park is involved. Other Olympic venues maybe...

bignate wrote:: The triangle from pie IX Olympic Stadium area to Peel to the islands is a huge area to cover in a walking tour. I think this has been mentioned before, but my first concern with this approach (putting aside individual clue interpretation) is that it is simply too far. Chicago was much shorter, correct? false assumption...chicago, noone did the greater puzzle...they only did the treasure hunt...the treasure hunt is grounded within the larger puzzle.

olympic park is indisputably a part of the puzzle.

Opal, October, Olympics, Olympic Park, Olympic Stadium ( known as the Big O and the Big Owe ), Ovoid Shape of Olympic Stadium, Order ( Cosmos birth flower for October ), '67, '76, '77..... So a couple of you guys really don't think this has anything to do with Olympic Park? Olympic Park is the Citadel.

Unknown: the Citadel is the Citadel That would make it an exception in "Verse Speak". Other than common nouns such as bridge, road, or fence to name three examples, that level of specificity usually means at least one degree of separation from the most likely interpretation. Like "Congress". And "Twain". On the other hand, the Salvation Army Citadel (sold in 2007) is only a block north of the George Stephen House (of "legeater" fame) and that is probably not a coincidence.

Unknown: This is exactly what I meant... I know. When it came to finding things that helped you find other things, Preiss was surprisingly helpful. Unless that other thing was a casque of course.

the citadel is the FORMER location of the MONTREAL CITADEL on Isle St Helenes...

Fenix wrote:: I see most folks looking for a tree and a stone. Makes sense, right? I am not so sure about that. I understand what you mean, but it just seems in the case of Montreal that there are good opportunities for this to actually be a tree, given the elm disease and the general clear cutting of Mount Royal etc... Also a white stone is a pretty reasonable blaze/marker. Mitigating in your favor is that the Golden Square Mile has very few trees or stones at all, so I’m all for creative interpretation. What did you have in mind?

To me, the directions are confusing, because 12 paces to the west side is not all that precise. So maybe there is a specific white stone roughly 12 paces away from the tree (for the sake of argument, the only large elm left in a park) Then dig right at the stone? Back to your question. What other member could be standing? One old mansion not torn down (as of 1980)? One statute standing with others laying down around it?

its pretty clear, you go from the stone to "under" the tree (doesnt have to be right at it) as we know its by a utility and where a sign once stood. the utility we have the sign is gone. im there again in two days for 77 fest

why a white stone? cause there are white stones left from the 67 exhibition all over isle st helenes, only two i saw were uncut though, and they are both on the south end. you cross over from notre dame to n end of isle st helenes and make your way s. see my map. look carefully.

a standing member often refers to someone in political office. in this case, jean drapeau, who centralized power on the municipal level to the executive committee, which oversaw and essentially controlled the standing committees that would oversee each particular department...in this context, we are looking mainly at his role overseeing construction projects for the 76 olympics 67 expo and bringing the expos to montreal.

Fenix wrote:: For those that care to humor me, let's chat a bit about the last portion of the verse. Specifically these lines: Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side I see most folks looking for a tree and a stone. Makes sense, right? I am not so sure about that. Yeah, that can certainly make sense in a literal way. I just see BP using so many different metaphors or secondary meanings of words that make these puzzles such a great challenge. For example, in the lines you mention, forest isn't an actual group of trees but a "thick cluster of vertical objects". I see the standing member as the tower of Olympic Stadium and the forest as all the other vertical objects (buildings in Olympic Park). To the south White stone closest (White Olympic Rings Stone wall) At twelve paces (12 paces or stone sections on short wall of esplanade) From the west side (Esplanade on the south side of Olympic Stadium)

the only standing member of a forest means a lone tree, doesnt have to have other vertical objects around it.

Unknown: I am not so sure about that. People are going to interpret the lines you've highlighted based on what they are sure of. Once upon a time, they were looking for those things in cities across North America, including New York and New Orleans because that's where they thought to apply this verse in general. More recently, people are looking to apply them to things in and around Montreal because that's the way the puzzle has evolved. Me, I don't think they'll ever make sense until we know for sure where in Montreal we need to be looking. "Standing member" is just too generic to be helpful, just like "four alike", "proud, tall fifth", or the bane of my existence, "last touched Or first seen standing".

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: People are going to interpret the lines you've highlighted based on what they are sure of. Once upon a time, they were looking for those things in cities across North America, including New York and New Orleans because that's where they thought to apply this verse in general. More recently, people are looking to apply them to things in and around Montreal because that's the way the puzzle has evolved. Me, I don't think they'll ever make sense until we know for sure where in Montreal we need to be looking. "Standing member" is just too generic to be helpful, just like "four alike", "proud, tall fifth", or the bane of my existence, "last touched Or first seen standing". I just posted in the latest, latest, latest new thread about New York. Temped in the stylings of Drunk Nerds to just quote this into a new thread about "lets re-think the verses" That is a serious concern I have though. I'm not willing to lock down the verses in a way so many are. My particular hang up is with verse 10 being the given NY solution. There are not ridiculous ways to reassign a few of the ambiguous verses to try some different ones in NY. I'm not going so far as to lay down canards like whoever thinks the Houston verse is actually for NY, but I fail to get why the last couple of unsure verses. Certainly Octave/the exact quote from the wright bros is Image 3, etc. But we have ambiguity in Twain, even. Seems to me there are some people finding some compelling (maybe a generous term) visual connections and then trying to ram them through with what we always thought the verse was. Certain things are set in stone with verse/image matchings; Some certainly are: St Augustine for example, but I'm open for interpretation a little bit when it comes to some others that AREN'T set in stone like a Houston or St. Augustine, Roanoke, etc. e: Try Charleston or New Orleans with the "Grey Giant" as a Confederate General, or try Montral with the "Grey Giant" being the Montreal Alouettes (The Grey Cup being the CFL equivalent of the Lombardi trophy). There are reasonable alternatives for those "replaced verses" that can easily be reassigned to another city. Don't forget the Boer War monument in Dorchester Square, which has always been very interesting to me for a long time that I have many posts about going back years. Someone else might have used that in their recent theories but that's always been a big favourite of mine.

Unknown: There are reasonable alternatives for those "replaced verses" that can easily be reassigned to another city. No doubt. But in order to be fully compelling, you have to account for the verse you replaced. With the 10 remaining unsolved puzzles, there are 100 unique combinations if you are merely throwing darts. Since you can eliminate some of them, your number is most likely smaller, but even if you have it down to 5 unresolved verses, that's still 25 unique combinations. I would ask you to consider what sets a combination in stone for you, and then see if you can apply the same methodology to the unresolved verses. Because as we have been reminded recently, you can use just about any verse to explore just about any city, including cities that we are pretty sure don't contain a casque. And while I don't claim to have all the answers, one thing that I am 100% sure about is that no part of this puzzle was not meant to be solved by trial and error. Note: I'm pretty sure Merlot already knows all of this. So mostly, this post is for others who may still be floundering.

Unknown: one thing that I am 100% sure about is that no part of this puzzle was not meant to be solved by trial and error. My bad. That sentence should read "no part of this puzzle was meant to be solved by trial and error". I blame Trump and his double negatives for the error.

Renovator, I understand your point. However it seems to me that the 2 casques were found by some amount of trial and error. Sure, we shouldn’t have blinders on and assume that we have the verses assigned to the right cities. But at the same time it is important to rely upon all the work that has been done up to this point over the years (on this forum) to narrow the search as much as it has. I for one feel pretty convinced that verse 5 is Montreal and will proceed with my knucklehead ideas because nothing else looks as promising. Maybe I will be proven wrong, but I’ll be in good company and would be happy to admit it when the time comes. Now, in the spirit of me charging ahead on my blind alley: what on earth could be “wind swept halls” in the Golden Square Mile area of Montreal??? I mean, not a lot of open-air Spanish villas in sight. Could it mean a painting in the museum of art? (Along with one with granite walls?)

Erpobdelliforme wrote:: I blame Trump and his double negatives for the error. So... Fake No's...

Unknown: Renovator, I understand your point. Not sure you do, since I have been clear on the fact that I don't doubt for one minute that not only have we identified the correct cities, but we also have the correct Verse/Image connections as well. My comment was directed at those who have less confidence in those connections, in their entirety. I will address your point that the first two were solved using a certain amount of trial and error, and while that's true, I don't think they needed to be. And I think that the information gleaned from just those two puzzles should be enough to solve the third, completely. Or would have been back in the day. Unfortunately, Preiss is gone and apparently, he took his secrets with him. As such, trial and error is what we have left. But that's different from saying that's the way they were meant to be solved. Good luck on your search.

the windswept halls arent in the gsm they are on isle st helenes, however, the best answer for that would be the mount royal chalet.

bignate wrote:: Renovator, I understand your point. However it seems to me that the 2 casques were found by some amount of trial and error. Sure, we shouldn’t have blinders on and assume that we have the verses assigned to the right cities. But at the same time it is important to rely upon all the work that has been done up to this point over the years (on this forum) to narrow the search as much as it has. I for one feel pretty convinced that verse 5 is Montreal and will proceed with my knucklehead ideas because nothing else looks as promising. Maybe I will be proven wrong, but I’ll be in good company and would be happy to admit it when the time comes. Now, in the spirit of me charging ahead on my blind alley: what on earth could be “wind swept halls” in the Golden Square Mile area of Montreal??? I mean, not a lot of open-air Spanish villas in sight. Could it mean a painting in the museum of art? (Along with one with granite walls?) I see the "wind swept halls" as that many different corridors throughout the various buildings in Olympic Park. These are in the open-air and if you've ever been to any outdoor sporting events (baseball, soccer, football, tennis) then you've experienced the winds blowing through the venue.

Unknown: think outside of the box.... They are. Just not here.

Unknown: I can only read the same thing over and over so many times before I want to pull a Seabass. Now you're getting it.

Fenix wrote:: Sorry guys but I think the point of my post was lost on you two. The goal of this exercise was not to convince me why your theorized dig spot is correct. I’ve read the entire “solves”(ok, maybe not all of them) and you can never convince me of either. I was reminiscing about Q4T circa 2004-2006 earlier today. Nobody had solves back then. People discussed portions of the verses or images. Back and forth ideas were shared and debated. It was good stuff. Yeah, I get it, times have changed but it kind of sucks now doesn’t it. There is simply less to discuss because everybody has solves. Let’s face it, just about every solve that we have seen has weak spots. Most have several and they are glaring. That said there are good ideas out there. I imagine you all know your strong points from your weak ones, right? How about instead of having 10 solves, we focus on discussing and refining your weakest spots. I thought that's what everyone was doing. I certainly wasn't trying to convince anyone of my solve, just sharing it. A few months ago I might have tried to convince you guys that my solves were "THE" solves. I've stopped doing that because it is clearly a waste of time. And yes times have changed, I mean with all the great info that all the searchers have come up with over the last decades it has to move forward. I thoroughly enjoy the back-n-forth on various ideas. I look at ideas from others to try to get me "away" from my solve and into even better locations.

like...like...mine...XD!

Exactly

whereas gsh is prob the most important part of the mtl puzzle, i can assure you its not there. ;p

What is "Pull a SeaBass?" Did someone named SeaBass get tired of the negativity and give up sharing ideas here? Please tell. To my point: I am currently exploring matching Verse 10 with SF. Seems there are actually interesting connections with Chinatown and most of the clues. This theory began for me when I considered the bus schedules and Cable Car routes in connection to what you'd see if you were a traveler set out to see some things China related to SF. The visual indicators in Image 1 can be seen from many of the stops along the way, as well as references to Sun Yat Sen and Coit Tower. I haven't put all of the missing parts together yet, but feel free to criticise what I've shared so far. I usually learn something and have a great laugh to keep me interested in this search. And of course, Have an excellent day! Adam

Oh yea. this is the wrong page. OOps

AlaskaCasqueFinder wrote:: What is "Pull a SeaBass?" Did someone named SeaBass get tired of the negativity and give up sharing ideas here? Please tell... The opposite, seemed to hate any new ideas quickly making his/her own inferences from posted links and putting words in your mouth that weren’t true. My suggested image 12 verse 1 Manhattan thread is an example pulling a Seabass.

seabass was a troll. he asked for all the content he added to be removed, but that probably was just to make him look better.

cause you and seabass (the two largest troll on the site other than nycnative who has disappeared) whined to mark incessently to get me banned for no reason (cause i made new threads and said the word shit XD). youre a goof and everyone sees it (go complain about this post why dont ya). little girl.

Goldengate wrote:: Says Josh "Anus905" Cornell, the biggest troll this forum has had to deal with. Seabass ASKED to be removed... you've been forcibly removed, banned and deleted THREE TIMES (or is it four?) -- and it sure wasn't because you asked. Please remind everyone, how many thousands of your posts has Marc deleted in just the six months since you've joined? I've only been here for three or so years... I don't remember anyone else being booted even once. C'mon Josh, you have all the answers... tell all the new members how many times you've been banned from this forum? I mean... the admin even blocked your IP! For a guy who bloviates on and on and on and... onnnnn about how you’re some kind of clue master you sure are struggling to take a hint. And for a guy who “def” solved this whole hunt back in January (you know, days after you first watched the Expedition Unlnown ep) you found a lot of... nothing... and because of your attitude, you’ve found even less respect.

Goldengate wrote:: Nope, you were banned because of this: ... AND there was also your racist talk (with even worse justification for using it) and the super creepy comments about another member's daughter. Oh -- and of course the classic troll move of flooding this board with THOUSANDS of disjointed, insulting posts that literally buried all threads. Nobody cares if someone creates a couple new threads... you simply tried to take over this board and you've chased a lot of good people away. That, Josh, is what trolls do. And last... I'll let you in on a secret...While I'd love to take credit, there are a whole lot of others here who were responsible for getting you banned. a) i never said anything racist (that comment was made on fb and it was not even racist) b)that was the second time i was banned. the first time was for the reasons listed...also, i fully stand by that comment. i own it, and i dont feel any shame.

the final one was clearly a fucking joke. i never even knew he had a daughter (and he knew that), so how can i be hitting on someone i dont know exists...also i very clearly qualified (if shes of age)...get a fucking clue you loser. go circle jerk with golden gate somewhere else. your attempts to smear me are petty and pathetic. you suck at the treasure hunt and are just jealous. come get some.

I wonder what clever name he'll come back as the next time he gets banned.

JoshCornell wrote:: .....(go complain about this post why dont ya). little girl. Add sexist to the list now

Unknown: there are a whole lot of others here who were responsible for getting you banned Do tell? How would you know this if you weren't part of the "others", at least to the extent that they would share this information with you? Seriously, you guys are pathetic.

Unknown: That is what trolls do. I know what "trolls do" GG. We're done here. Have an excellent day.

cause you went around telling everyone i am racist. when im not racist. youre just an idiot. period.

by all means click on seabass or nycnative or goldengates profile and browse through their posts 90+ % are just them trolling me...sad shit bro.

Unknown: 90+ % are just them trolling me And you continue to fall for it Josh, every single time. Until your lesser nature comes out, and you post things that will get you banned, again. I'm not in the habit of telling people what to do on this forum, least of all you, but here, the play should be obvious.

Fenix wrote:: and you make ignorant comments about things not translating to Canadian which basically insults an entire country. Let us know when you are finished with your witch hunt and I will stop looking to beat you over the head with my broom. Syrup, suryp, bags of milk, im soory. Get raked, Goldengate.

Hi guys, I guess we're done with verse 5. Please let welcome verse 2 and stop wasting your energy on the wrong poem =P (hopefully!) viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7362

For whatever it's worth and to whatever city it may tie to: A wingless bird ascended Born of ancient dreams of flight... viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7258&start=285#p145285 : “Wingless bird” – if you translate it directly, it means “bird without wings”. But, for instance, “iron horse” is motorcycle…(apparently he’s trying to show it’s not a literal bird without wings.) You could think of what a wingless bird could refer to. In Japan, you can see this thing very easily (as also in other places; not a special Japanese thing). Could these lines point to a rocket? It's been mentioned in this forum before... "A BRIEF HISTORY OF ROCKETRY. PART 1: HOW ANCIENT DREAMS TOOK TO THE SKY" hxxp://sen.com/features/history-of-rocketry-part-1

It could definitely be linked to any sort of flying object without wings. That's why the second part of my theory (the landmarks in the park) are just some random hints, I'm absolutely not sure about them. Maybe everything is in Chinatown as pointed out by the image. Still the references to the Granite windswept citadel, the arc light and the "survived the earthquake" really gave me shivers. There's need of San Francisco locals for a feedback about this!

Verse 5 belongs with image 12 - new york. The wingless bird is the woman in the image - look at it - she is literally hovering or floating "ascending" above the water.

MERLIN wrote:: Verse 5 belongs with image 12 - new york. The wingless bird is the woman in the image - look at it - she is literally hovering or floating "ascending" above the water. It is a good thought. However, you have that line describing the image and not something you would see along the path. If you could find the woman in image 12 in that state of “ascending” somewhere along the path, that might work. Chicago & Cleveland solves have the verse describing something in the image and something you would see along the path. “Fence & Fixture” “Seek the columns” Seeing something in an image, relating it to something on the ground, & having it stated in the verse is a viable clue to matching image / verse.

The book specifically tells you to link a verse to an image. Those are the directions.

MERLIN wrote:: The book specifically tells you to link a verse to an image. Those are the directions. Really!? I had no idea. Sarcasm noted. It doesn’t say how to link... That’s why we are having these lovely conversations as to which image goes to which verse... 36 years later. Lest I should further digress from the topic of this forum...

Delilah84 wrote:: It could definitely be linked to any sort of flying object without wings. That's why the second part of my theory (the landmarks in the park) are just some random hints, I'm absolutely not sure about them. Maybe everything is in Chinatown as pointed out by the image. Still the references to the Granite windswept citadel, the arc light and the "survived the earthquake" really gave me shivers. There's need of San Francisco locals for a feedback about this! Delilah, I am only 2 hours from San Francisco. I have been open for sometime on a different verse to match image 1. I’ve been spending most of my time in research trying to match something concrete in the image to something on the ground. I like your idea and will look into it more. Thank you.

I like the idea of finding something concrete. Something of that nature would surely help make any of these verses make sense as they interact with their corresponding pieces.

Scrappy929 wrote:: It doesn’t say how to link... Yes it does,

Spiritr wrote:: Yes it does, Words mean nothing here. Bring facts or stay home. https://www.flickr.com/photos/45degreessa/9012721134/ Yeah. That tells us "exactly" how to link. The Japanese translation stated that the Japanese readers were given a special hint, which was to: "Before you go reading the poems, look at the pictures. Then, taking all of the numbers in the poems, you can then put them into different combinations and join them with a picture."

Goldengate wrote:: Surprised there hasn't been spirited discussion about this part of the translation. I think it's possibly one of the most critical takeaways in terms of confirming or denying commonly held beliefs about verse to image pairings. It could confirm what we believe... or be a complete game changer. I've been working on it. I'd share if I felt I had anything concrete at this point. E: Replied before realizing convo on this topic moved to Clues in the Book thread.

Fenix wrote:: Is that translation accurate? Specifically, the reference to the numbers in the poem instead of the images. I find it curious that it is said to look at the images first and find the combination of numbers....but in the poem. If you instead said the combination of numbers in the images, it makes perfect sense and would be a logical first step to establishing our cities with lat/lon. Hmm...this is a very good point. Hats off to that translator, it sounded like he was doing an awesome job working through the text, but going from one language to another is always a tricky business.

Where did that translated fragment come from...? Japanese speaker or Google...? (I don't remember Burnstyle's or GG's interpreter providing it.)

Unknown: Where did that translated fragment come from...? From Burnstyle's conversation with a translator: hxxp://12treasures.com/finaltranslation.mp3 Relevant information begins at 1:07:30. Current discussion, such as it is, can also be found on Page 27 of the "Clues in the Book" thread; viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7258&start=390 .

Thanks Erpobdelliforme!

you are to look at images first id say cause puzzle is designed in order of images, as they fall.

Let's reel this thread back in. After taking a long break from Verse 5, I started looking at it again and came across some info that I find pretty compelling regarding the wingless bird. I had previously posted an Art Deco image that was on display at the Museum of Fine Arts: Looking into this a bit more, you can see the R-100 on the side of the blimp. This blimp was flown from the UK to Montreal and arrived at the Saint-Hubert Airport on August 1, 1930. Some called it the Titanic of the skies, which in hindsight was not great moniker. It was a huge event and spurred a bunch of economic development and arguably changed Montreal. Here are some articles: https://welweb.org/ThenandNow/R-100.html hxxp://hughdoherty.tripod.com/r100.htm https://www.sscpn.org/south-shore-histo ... visit.html

Fenix wrote:: I've read about this flight as well. You're right, it was a very big deal. Thoughts on whether this is what the verse is referring to?

Fenix wrote:: I've read about this flight as well. You're right, it was a very big deal. so did i...and it points you toward the right answer of the clue in the verse being the first balloon created in canada leaving from griffintown. good job gman. finally y'all are coming round lol.

da vinci doesnt point to fine arts museum it points to man of the world where a flight exhibit and da vinci exhibit were held in the place de nations after 67.

Let's talk about Laurentian Lanes at 222 Montée de Liesse, Saint-Laurent. Who feels that this might be the reference in Verse 5?

I think the bowling alley is just an interesting coincidence. As a practical matter, it is too far from the trail. I think 222 was a no-longer-existing art boutique on Sherbrooke near the art museum.

Lane Two twenty two I broke this down from the Metric system and how it was shoved down our throats in the 70s in grade school. All the teachers ever talked about was how we Americans were going to have to convert to the Metric system. With this in mind I realized that 222 kilometers equals 138 miles. Quebec Route 138 is also Rue Sherbrooke which runs all thru areas of Montreal and right down the middle of Olympic Park and Olympic Village. This is Lane Two twenty two in my solve. The clues in the Verse as well as the Image are on or very close to QR 138. Thoughts? Additions?

bignate wrote:: I think the bowling alley is just an interesting coincidence. As a practical matter, it is too far from the trail. I think 222 was a no-longer-existing art boutique on Sherbrooke near the art museum. that would fit with the puzzle referencing the intersection of sherbrooke and peel as the beginning location...theres also the band the 222's lol

MrBackstop wrote:: Lane Two twenty two I broke this down from the Metric system and how it was shoved down our throats in the 70s in grade school. All the teachers ever talked about was how we Americans were going to have to convert to the Metric system. With this in mind I realized that 222 kilometers equals 138 miles. Quebec Route 138 is also Rue Sherbrooke which runs all thru areas of Montreal and right down the middle of Olympic Park and Olympic Village. This is Lane Two twenty two in my solve. The clues in the Verse as well as the Image are on or very close to QR 138. Thoughts? Additions? dude that is lane 2-20...already noted that in my solve...the 138 brings you along sherbrooke to peel which is where the top square tells you to start for the bazillionth time...ive solved the whole top square, cept maybe one reference...its intense.

i didnt realize the conversion thing but that is damn good reinforcement...if anyone had any doubts whatsoever.

Fenix wrote:: Wouldn't that be Two Twenty-Two? He did use a hyphen in verse 2, In the middle of twenty-one. I'm curious, have you been to Olympic Park? You have some very large stretches with the architecture(much which cannot be seen or was not built yet) and location. No I have not been to Montreal, but truly enjoyed Toronto when I made it there. I don't quite understand, why would there have to be a hyphen if I interpreted this to be number 222? I believe the other clue to be used differently, perhaps why he used the hyphen in the clue. What stretches with what architecture? I'm happy to explain why I came up with certain ideas.

Fenix wrote:: I did at one time but agree with Nate, it is far and in a very odd place. It could reference the highway though. The 20 was previously the 2 and was called the 2 and 20 or 20 and 2, something like that....going off of memory. Is it possible that the bowling Lane s at 222 are a clue to to look at the Laurentian Autoroute, which runs down through Montreal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Autoroute_15#/media/File:Parcours-Autoroute-15.png In Image 2 there is a relatively clear reference to a road, and in several of the verses (1, 3, 4, 5, 10, 12) there are references to roads leading into the general area of the casque sites.

gManTexas wrote:: Is it possible that the bowling Lane s at 222 are a clue to to look at the Laurentian Autoroute, which runs down through Montreal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Autoroute_15#/media/File:Parcours-Autoroute-15.png In Image 2 there is a relatively clear reference to a road, and in several of the verses (1, 3, 4, 5, 10, 12) there are references to roads leading into the general area of the casque sites. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thvi_7Y17HY

JoshCornell wrote:: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thvi_7Y17HY How is this video related to the search Josh?

I think it's the Japanese translation.

short answer: it's referenced. long answer: you figure it out (obvs cause i'm so useless). that being said, however, it also gets you to oscar peterson...if you care. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nje7TuVJIo i dunno about you...but i sure wanna go for a run downhill...

JoshCornell wrote:: short answer: it's referenced. long answer: you figure it out (obvs cause i'm so useless). that being said, however, it also gets you to oscar peterson...if you care. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nje7TuVJIo i dunno about you...but i sure wanna go for a run downhill... I’ll give you credit for one thing. You sure put a lot of research into this puzzle. Not sure if any of means a damn thing, but an A for effort.

BINGO wrote:: I’ll give you credit for one thing. You sure put a lot of research into this puzzle. Not sure if any of means a damn thing, but an A for effort. I wouldn't give Josh credit at all. Absolutely nothing Josh has posted has made any progress or helped in any way.

ohhh poor gman... *gives gman a hug* (gman needs a hug, everyone give gman a hug)...you arent touch averse are you? we wouldnt want to trigger you, so best to ask for consent first XD

JoshCornell wrote:: ohhh poor gman... *gives gman a hug* (gman needs a hug, everyone give gman a hug)...you arent touch averse are you? we wouldnt want to trigger you, so best to ask for consent first XD Why do you have to make it weird man? Come to Texas again and I'll throw you a welcoming party.

gManTexas wrote:: I wouldn't give Josh credit at all. Absolutely nothing Josh has posted has made any progress or helped in any way. I edited my quote to emphasize the important part of the point I was trying to make.... hehe

I think I found a key word and I'd like some feedback. Beneath the only standing member Of a forest To the south White stone closest At twelve paces From the west side The word "At" has to be important here. What I mean is that the word ""At" seems to definitively define the location. The verse does not say "Take twelve paces" or "Go twelve paces". It is referring to a location, not an action. I say that because one of the definitions of "pace" is - " a raised step or platform ". My solve, as many here know, is in Montreal's Olympic Park. What I just realized this week is that my spot is also next to 3 sets of 4 stairs on the South side of the Esplanade near the White Stone Olympic Rings wall.

If anyone has ever read The Gold Bug, the references to this verse (and painting) are pretty remarkable. In the first paragraphs, Sullivan’s Island, Fort Moultrie, and palmetto branches are all mentioned. The gold mask in the painting is an unquestionable nod to the story which is about a treasure hunt. In the same collection of short stories by Edgar Allen Poe, there is the Balloon Hoax which ends with a hot air balloon landing (descending not ascending) at Sullivan’s Island. Hard to believe this wasn’t Preiss’ inspiration behind this verse/painting.

davinci4 wrote:: If anyone has ever read The Gold Bug, the references to this verse (and painting) are pretty remarkable. In the first paragraphs, Sullivan’s Island, Fort Moultrie, and palmetto branches are all mentioned. The gold mask in the painting is an unquestionable nod to the story which is about a treasure hunt. In the same collection of short stories by Edgar Allen Poe, there is the Balloon Hoax which ends with a hot air balloon landing (descending not ascending) at Sullivan’s Island. Hard to believe this wasn’t Preiss’ inspiration behind this verse/painting. I do like Poe's reference. for the following reasons: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&hilit=poe&start=2017 viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&hilit=poe&start=2021 Also if you do a search for Poe in this thread you'll see many references to The Gold Bug and Poe, as far back as 2006.

Here's an alternative pairing and partial solution for V5, I1. San Francisco Union Square: • Lane – Maiden Lane, San Francisco formerly red light district Image 1 may've been modeled after Star Maiden statues. • Two twenty two – Maiden Lane is a 2 block street, At the west end of the street it intersects Stockton. 222 Stockton building at the corner. A giant Pan Am sign was present on top of the building. Union Square is across the Stockton Street. • You'll see an arc of lights – Maiden Lane was strung up with lights. There might’ve been an arched entrance there too. • Weight and roots extended – • Together saved the site – • Of granite walls – • Wind swept halls – • Citadel in the night – • A wingless bird ascended – On top of the Dewey Monument is a wingless Victory. Victory is commonly winged, standing on globe holding wreath. • Born of ancient dreams of flight – Origins from ancient Greek and Roman empires (winged victory) • Beneath the only standing member – Under the victory is the only column in the square • Of a forest To the south – Union Square had sets of palm trees on all four corners. So there were two sets of palm trees to the south • White stone closest – On the south west side there was a white stone • At twelve paces From the west side • Get permission To dig out. I only looked at the beginning and ending of the verse so others may chime in. The monument features a 79-foot tall granite shaft topped by a pedestal and a bronzed figure of a woman representing both liberty and victory. The woman holds a trident and a laurel wreath, symbolizing both naval strength and victory. Next to the Union Square is Morris building with spiral interior (Xanadu gallery), the only Frank Lloyd Wright building in SF. The building has a unique brick arched entrance. Not related, Frank Morris was a prisoner escapee from Alcatraz. That may explain bars on the gate in the painting. https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/sf072.asp Powell street cable car runs by the square; Powell turntable is nearby that may be represented by the round table.

Choice, were you able to find a date for those two photos of Union Square? I've been looking at an I1/V6 combo for San Francisco, with a possible dig spot directly beneath the Victory column, but it looks like that plaza's undergone a lot of renovation.

JamesV wrote:: Choice, were you able to find a date for those two photos of Union Square? I've been looking at an I1/V6 combo for San Francisco, with a possible dig spot directly beneath the Victory column, but it looks like that plaza's undergone a lot of renovation. Searching exclusively online I had a hard time finding good photos. I'm sure you could find better pics at the library. Those are actually postcards from the 60's I was able to find easily on ebay. You can buy them for under $2. The square had gone through complete excavation and renovation in the early 2000's so nothing there is original except for the Dewey monument.

JamesV wrote:: Choice, were you able to find a date for those two photos of Union Square? I've been looking at an I1/V6 combo for San Francisco, with a possible dig spot directly beneath the Victory column, but it looks like that plaza's undergone a lot of renovation. Here are the available digital photos on SF library website sorted by date for Union Square: https://tinyurl.com/y7tp4fqn

Choice wrote:: Here are the available digital photos on SF library website sorted by date for Union Square: https://tinyurl.com/y7tp4fqn Thanks Choice-- very helpful! I've written up some of my Union Square thoughts in the V6 thread, but it looks like that area's changed a ton over the years.

Infact if you google earth the area you'll see it was just a dirt field in early 2000.

Here's my Verse 5 solution that leads to the top of the shadow of the Charleston, SC Hobson Memorial on April 26 at 4pm (sundial time). Special thanks to James Vachowski for helping me think outside of Verse 6. What do you think? https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lxkCnE ... sp=sharing

Hi, I'm new here. I'm from Montreal and I'm a geek for local history, so maybe I can help out. Can someone tell me why people think that verse 5 is linked to image 9 and to Montreal? I've skimmed through this very long post but I can't find that information. I've looked at the information at "The Secret" website which explains theories on the relationship between verse 5 and image 9, but they seem pretty loose and inconclusive to me, especially when compared to the evidence linking image 9 with Montreal, which is much more convincing. Thanks!

Welcome Bopollo! I think people link verse 5 with Montreal by the process of elimination. I'm not sure of any direct ties. In fact, I believe verse 5 goes with Charleston. We'd love your help confirming a verse for Montreal!

bopollo wrote:: Hi, I'm new here. I'm from Montreal and I'm a geek for local history, so maybe I can help out. Can someone tell me why people think that verse 5 is linked to image 9 and to Montreal? I've skimmed through this very long post but I can't find that information. I've looked at the information at "The Secret" website which explains theories on the relationship between verse 5 and image 9, but they seem pretty loose and inconclusive to me, especially when compared to the evidence linking image 9 with Montreal, which is much more convincing. Thanks! Keep working next find is going to be Canadian!

Welcome bopollo. You raise a good question, and I think it is fair to say that there isn’t a great reason to be certain that verse 5 fits (other than no other verses are better.) However, my personal opinion is that it is the right verse and my pseudo-solve does make sense using that verse with only a few leaps of faith... the difficulty is that even among those of us who think verse 5 is Montreal, there is a wide disagreement over where the verse leads in the city! It is a tough one.

bopollo wrote:: Can someone tell me why people think that verse 5 is linked to image 9 and to Montreal? I've skimmed through this very long post but I can't find that information. Hi Welcome as others have said Verse 5 is basically the one left over all the other verse image combos are considered to be very solid, You also have to realize it wasn't that long ago that Montreal wasn't even considered a city. It was only after the legeater was found and St Louis MO, was removed from contention. But rather than look at the puzzle as a single city puzzle, it makes sense to look at all the cities and verse/image combinations. so If you are thinking of trying a different verse you need to look at what ramifications that has to the other cities involved. For instance if you wanted to use Verse 7 for Montreal then That would affect SF (the most likey Verse 7 pair), which means the 2nd most likely pair verse 6 would go to SF Which mean Charlston, now needs a verse. etc etc down the line. Ripples in a pond. The more ripples you make, the less likely your suggested change would be...

maltedfalcon wrote:: Hi Welcome as others have said Verse 5 is basically the one left over all the other verse image combos are considered to be very solid, You also have to realize it wasn't that long ago that Montreal wasn't even considered a city. It was only after the legeater was found and St Louis MO, was removed from contention. But rather than look at the puzzle as a single city puzzle, it makes sense to look at all the cities and verse/image combinations. so If you are thinking of trying a different verse you need to look at what ramifications that has to the other cities involved. For instance if you wanted to use Verse 7 for Montreal then That would affect SF (the most likey Verse 7 pair), which means the 2nd most likely pair verse 6 would go to SF Which mean Charlston, now needs a verse. etc etc down the line. Ripples in a pond. The more ripples you make, the less likely your suggested change would be... Maltedfalcon, that's the rabbit hole I went down last night. It is possible that The Secret wiki page has three verse pairings incorrect: 5, 6, and 7 (the ones traditionally paired with Montreal, Charleston, and San Francisco). After researching verse 5 and its relation to Montreal, I have yet to hear or see any connection between the two, so at this time I am convinced that is not a correct pairing (but simply people pairing those two by process of elimination). So last night I tried to brainstorm a better pairing for these three cities and verses and came up with the following: Verse 5 is Charleston (clue: “Citadel” pointing to Fort Sumter) Verse 6 is San Francisco (clue: words hinting at Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson and pointing to Robert Louis Stevenson monument in Chinatown) Verse 7 is Montreal (clue: During his first visit to Montreal in 1888, Mark Twain proclaimed Montréal The city of a hundred bell towers, saying, "This is the first time I was ever in a city where you couldn't throw a brick without breaking a church window.” This points to “an object of Twain's attention.”) Additionally, I believe that verse 5 is most likely either Charleston or San Francisco as both locations have a prominent citadel (Fort Sumter or Alcatraz). In addition, Fort Sumter and Alcatraz both were made with granite, are known for being very windy, and could have arcs of lights (cannonballs or lighthouse). Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

jamesrogers2 wrote:: Maltedfalcon, that's the rabbit hole I went down last night. It is possible that The Secret wiki page has three verse pairings incorrect: 5, 6, and 7 (the ones traditionally paired with Montreal, Charleston, and San Francisco). After researching verse 5 and its relation to Montreal, I have yet to hear or see any connection between the two, so at this time I am convinced that is not a correct pairing (but simply people pairing those two by process of elimination). So last night I tried to brainstorm a better pairing for these three cities and verses and came up with the following: Verse 5 is Charleston (clue: “Citadel” pointing to Fort Sumter) Verse 6 is San Francisco (clue: words hinting at Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson and pointing to Robert Louis Stevenson monument in Chinatown) Verse 7 is Montreal (clue: During his first visit to Montreal in 1888, Mark Twain proclaimed Montréal The city of a hundred bell towers, saying, "This is the first time I was ever in a city where you couldn't throw a brick without breaking a church window.” This points to “an object of Twain's attention.”) Additionally, I believe that verse 5 is most likely either Charleston or San Francisco as both locations have a prominent citadel (Fort Sumter or Alcatraz). In addition, Fort Sumter and Alcatraz both were made with granite, are known for being very windy, and could have arcs of lights (cannonballs or lighthouse). Any feedback is greatly appreciated! Well the pairings you have come up with are nothing new. as a matter of fact, for a long time 6 was the choice for SF and 5 for charleston. (there is actually a school there called the citadel... and there has been lots of research on those pairings. years worth as a matter of fact - boots on the ground comparing searching- and it was after all that research and hunting that the current v7 sf , - v6 charleston, V5 montreal has been arrived at. RLS has strong ties to charleston and to SF I had to look back to see who first mentioned Portsmouth Square and RLS... it was in 2008 oh yeah me. I went over all the RLS possibilites deeply Verse 7 is a much better fit. That shouldn't stop you from looking at all. but what I am saying is you are looking at re-pairing these verses in a a very cursory way - simply because of the little amount of time you have spent . people have been tearing at these for years now. If you want to look using different verses, great! - if you are trying to convince others, you have a huge amount of research ahead.. Seriously when I tried to convince everybody that verse 7 was SF not New Orleans, it took the better part of 2 years. - plain and simply the clues are so generic you can basically make any verse fit any city. Twain has ties just about everywhere.

maltedfalcon wrote:: RLS has strong ties to charleston He does?

maltedfalcon wrote:: Well the pairings you have come up with are nothing new. as a matter of fact, for a long time 6 was the choice for SF and 5 for charleston. (there is actually a school there called the citadel... and there has been lots of research on those pairings. years worth as a matter of fact - boots on the ground comparing searching- and it was after all that research and hunting that the current v7 sf , - v6 charleston, V5 montreal has been arrived at. RLS has strong ties to charleston and to SF I had to look back to see who first mentioned Portsmouth Square and RLS... it was in 2008 oh yeah me. I went over all the RLS possibilites deeply Verse 7 is a much better fit. That shouldn't stop you from looking at all. but what I am saying is you are looking at re-pairing these verses in a a very cursory way - simply because of the little amount of time you have spent . people have been tearing at these for years now. If you want to look using different verses, great! - if you are trying to convince others, you have a huge amount of research ahead.. Seriously when I tried to convince everybody that verse 7 was SF not New Orleans, it took the better part of 2 years. - plain and simply the clues are so generic you can basically make any verse fit any city. Twain has ties just about everywhere. Thanks for the feedback and your longtime work on the puzzle! Is there anything that connects verse 5 and Montreal enough for you to think that is an actual pairing?

JamesV wrote:: He does? Yes through the strong ties of charleston's piracy. and the preface to Treasure Island.

MF, thanks for explaining the thought process. This is one of the points where I guess we're still going to disagree. There's no denying that several pirates were present in the Atlantic Ocean during Charleston's early years, as they also were around FL, NC, etc. But for me, making the whole "Treasure Island" jump on that fact alone just seems like too much of a stretch. Also, while Robert Louis Stevenson did stay in both SF and NYC during his travels from Scotland to Samoa, the man has absolutely no connection to Charleston. For me, at least, I think the I1/V6 pairing lays the groundwork for a much stronger connection. As you pointed out, there's an actual RLS monument there...not just an overly vague reference to the subject of one of his many books. Further, that statue actually features a model of the ship "Hispaniola"... the same one that was in the book "Treasure Island." I agree with you, it looks like V6 is definitely hinting towards a "Treasure Island" reference, but I don't see why people would still choose prefer a more obscure interpretation over what seems like a very direct clue. Just my .02, from a guy with zero casques found to date.

JamesV wrote:: but I don't see why people would still choose prefer a more obscure interpretation over what seems like a very direct clue. Just my .02, from a guy with zero casques found to date. May 1913 is a pretty direct clue... yet we are ignoring that...

burnstyle wrote:: May 1913 is a pretty direct clue... yet we are ignoring that... I've put my thoughts on this down in the V6 thread-- if we can assume that an I1/V6 pairing would start in Portsmouth Square, near Chinatown, it's logical to suspect that "May 1913" might be a direct reference to the US' diplomatic recognition of the Republic of China on May 2, 1913. Who knows, maybe this line is meant to get you walking towards the Kuomintang (Taiwan's Nationalist Party) HQ or something, and possibly spot a visual confirmer along the way. I absolutely don't believe that "May 1913" could be meant to signify the USS Maine's capstan in Charleston's White Point Gardens, especially not after listening to the hints from the Japanese version. Didn't the translator say something like, "Look in your history book-- what happened in May 1913?" Yes, the sinking of the USS Maine was definitely a historical event... but that happened in February 1898.

JamesV wrote:: I've put my thoughts on this down in the V6 thread-- if we can assume that an I1/V6 pairing would start in Portsmouth Square, near Chinatown, it's logical to suspect that "May 1913" might be a direct reference to the US' diplomatic recognition of the Republic of China on May 2, 1913. Who knows, maybe this line is meant to get you walking towards the Kuomintang (Taiwan's Nationalist Party) HQ or something, and possibly spot a visual confirmer along the way. I absolutely don't believe that "May 1913" could be meant to signify the USS Maine's capstan in Charleston's White Point Gardens, especially not after listening to the hints from the Japanese version. Didn't the translator say something like, "Look in your history book-- what happened in May 1913?" Yes, the sinking of the USS Maine was definitely a historical event... but that happened in February 1898. thats a good one James, that translation is gonna help somebody

JamesV wrote:: I've put my thoughts on this down in the V6 thread-- if we can assume that an I1/V6 pairing would start in Portsmouth Square, near Chinatown, it's logical to suspect that "May 1913" might be a direct reference to the US' diplomatic recognition of the Republic of China on May 2, 1913. Who knows, maybe this line is meant to get you walking towards the Kuomintang (Taiwan's Nationalist Party) HQ or something, and possibly spot a visual confirmer along the way. I absolutely don't believe that "May 1913" could be meant to signify the USS Maine's capstan in Charleston's White Point Gardens, especially not after listening to the hints from the Japanese version. Didn't the translator say something like, "Look in your history book-- what happened in May 1913?" Yes, the sinking of the USS Maine was definitely a historical event... but that happened in February 1898. Connection to San Francisco is Dr. Sun Yat-sen. He founded resistance group to reunite Taiwan and China.

I posted this on Facebook, as well. My apologies if you've already seen this. I've been working on a theory that Verse 8 should be paired with Montreal, which means that Verse 5 needs a home. The simplest choice is to switch 5 and 8 which would mean Verse 5 would now go with Milwaukee. I know very little about Milwaukee, so after a bit of digital digging, I'm throwing this out there. This is by no means a "solve." It is a list of a couple of things I found that could link Verse 5 with Milwaukee. "You'll see an arc of lights" - Possibly The North Point Lighthouse. The light would make a literal arc as it rotated. Also, arc lights are used in lighthouses. " A wingless bird ascended, Born of ancient dreams" - The Japanese hint tells us "wingless bird" is akin to "iron horse," which alludes to a helicopter. Leonardo da Vinci famously designed an aerial screw that could be called an "ancient" helicopter. On the campus of the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee there is a sculpture titled "Polyphony" that looks a lot like da Vinci's aerial screw. The sculpture has been moved from its original position, but I can't find when that happened. It is currently near the corner of N. Maryland Ave and E. Kenwood Blvd. Interestingly, there are white stones near the sculpture. Here is a photo of the two together https://www.flickr.com/photos/146228928@N05/48022012682/in/dateposted-public/ "Get permission to dig" - Could this mean it's not on public property? Could it be somewhere on the UW campus? As I said, it isn't much, but it might be helpful to someone.